Paul McAlary  0:05  
I'm surprised you can open the refrigerator door without it being a major accomplishment really the way the kitchen

Jeremy  0:13  
what I have

Paul McAlary  0:29  
Welcome to calls with Paul. On this week's episode, we start by talking to Jeremy. Jeremy is a person who lives in Manhattan. And as any of you who have lived in major cities might know that real estate is a precious commodity. So people will always have much smaller apartments for the money in large cities. And Manhattan is of course, the one of the biggest cities in the world. So my son, for example, Ryan had an apartment in Manhattan, and his entire kitchen is smaller than the walk in closet in our home. I've had friends that went to school at NYU and had apartments one friend had an apartment that was so small, that the bathroom was a toilet and a sink. But there was no shower or bathtub in the in the bathroom. The bath tub was actually in the middle of the of the kitchen sit area and was underneath the kitchen table. So you would have to lift up the kitchen table, the only place in the apartment that you could eat, to get and take a bath in. So you know, Manhattan apartments are notorious for being very small, as was Jeremy's case in this call. So if we listen in, you can hear us trying to work through Jeremy's dilemma of not having so much space, and we even get into some of the other rooms in his very small apartment.

Hi, Jeremy, can you hear me? I can hear you and Paul, good. I looked at your design. And you know, the biggest issue that you've got is that when they originally designed the kitchen, it was sort of crazy. They really made it very, very tight. Between this the sink and your refrigerator area, etc. But if you're going to have it that tight, the one thing you don't want is the refrigerator in the back of your sink. So mean that you don't you should never do your kitchen. And without fixing that. So if you've interested in owning the property now, I do it's currently got it to the beans. So yeah, so you know, having your refrigerator directly in the back of where your sink is. The problem with that is anytime people want to go to the refrigerator, no one can be anywhere in the whole kitchen. Because you got to you gotta go through the whole kitchen to get to the refrigerator. So they interfere someone with the sink at the dishwasher, all the countertop, everything is disturbed to get to the refrigerator. So the most important thing about when you have this kind of very tight space, is that you want the refrigerator located in the open area. So that would be the area that's, you know, got the open into it. And I guess you're trying to fit a table in here somewhere, too, right.

Jeremy  3:31  
Actually, what I was hoping to do was put a large counter on the sink side and have a 12 inch overhang. So I could put stools are nice and

Paul McAlary  3:44  
yeah, yeah, so that solves that problem. So then that that works. Really that works very well. And then the other thing I would tell you is do you have the thing I sent you up the design I sent you. I do I do. So you know it's got your refrigerator. So you were having a party, people want to go to the refrigerator and get something, they walk to the refrigerator, they get it they sit down at the table. I mean at the overhang, they go back to the couch, you go to the bedroom, you do whatever you're going to do, you're not interfering with anybody. If your switch where you're sinking your dishwasher are then when the dishwasher doors down, it's not in anybody's way blocking anything. And then you can unload the dishwasher and put it in all the cabinets going all the way down the run. And it won't be disturbing anything and if you're drying dishes or whatever, you put them on top of the dishwasher area, and then the area to your right of the sink is the area that you work at. And then nothing is in back of each other. So if you're at your range, you don't have a person at the sink in this design interfering with you. Certainly the worst thing that you do or would ever do is put the refrigerator which is the deepest, most used thing in back of the city. Okay, so you know this and then, you know, then your window forces you to have a shallow pantry on the side of the refrigerator. But that's not a horrible thing. And then you have a panel to the right of the refrigerator, and then the cabinet over the top of the refrigerator can come all the way out if you want. Or you could even make that shallow too, if you wanted it to be shallow, and have your refrigerator stick out a little bit more, this sort of aesthetic reasons why both would look good. But it's really, it's really sort of a no brainer that you'd never when you have a space, I mean, your space is so tight, you got something like inches or wood redic I'm surprised you can open the refrigerator door, without it being a major accomplishment really the way the kitchen.

Jeremy  5:46  
So what I have to be very careful. When you're sending a lot of sense,

Paul McAlary  5:52  
yeah, this way, you can open the refrigerator, you can get a wider refrigerator, if you want. You can have two door refrigerators, single door refrigerator, any kind of refrigerator you want.

Jeremy  6:02  
It's all going to work. Sure, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Because a lot of stuff,

Paul McAlary  6:05  
you have your microwave over your stove. Normally, that's what you would do in a small kitchen like this, that gets your microwave off of your countertop, if I don't know if they'll let you vent it outside. But if you can vent it outside, you can vent it outside, by going over the tops of the cabinets, maybe put some mold on top of the cabinets and hide it, if they won't let you puncture a hole in the building. And you have it be a self venting microwave, but then it's a light, it's a fan, it's the microwave off of your countertop. And then you have a whole lot of countertop to the right of the of the range that you can be working at. In fact, you can be at the sink, it's really has to be a one cook kitchen, but you can be at the sink and then turn around and work at the range and have a lot of countertop to be working there. And people can all be going to the refrigerator and getting whatever they need the whole time you're working at the stove, and working at the sink. So that's this, and this is just you know, it's one version of how you might do it. If you're willing to give up anything, having a table and just having some kind of countertop of the stool seating on the other side of the sink, then there's a lot of other versions that you might want to consider too. But you might have problems moving like your sink, you're probably what's this is an apartment building, how many story?

Jeremy  7:34  
I'm in the fifth floor of six. So

I would think you're gonna have a real problem moving your sink from very far from where it is. Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're absolutely right. But you can probably get the plumbing lines for the sink into the wall that's in the back of the sink. And then you could have distinct, okay, you could probably get the dishwasher then to the left of the sink instead of to the right of the sink. I mean, if you couldn't do that, that wouldn't be as important as moving the refrigerator. But it's definitely a way better kitchen dishwashers on the left and the sink is on the right of the dishwasher, then you don't have a dishwasher door also coming down and interfering with you being able to work and do stuff. Right. Right now it makes a

lot of sense. Other questions for you? Have you ever met anyone who put a like, as I was saying, as a poor man's fix to a drawer microwave? Have you seen anyone ever put a microwave just in a cabinet? So it can be obscured by the cabinet doors?

Paul McAlary  8:35  
Now you really shouldn't do that, if you mean put it in like a base cabinet and just have doors on it and have the microwave underneath.

Jeremy  8:44  
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just pure curiosity.

Paul McAlary  8:48  
You know, first off, it's asking for trouble. Because you can't see what especially in your kitchen where you can't leave any doors open. Because, you know, no one can walk anywhere. But, you know, heaven forbid you have a fire in the microwave or something, you're not going to even know about it until the whole building is engulfed. It's also not legal. So that will be another reason not to do it besides the fact. And, and the third thing is is putting your microwave over the stove is so much less expensive than if you get any kind of microwave drawer or put your microwave underneath the countertop, you know you're going to create you're going to lose a whole a whole lot of cabinet space and in a small kitchen. So like the microwave going over your stove. That microwave model almost always has a name and it has a model number and a name. And the name of the microwave is called the Spacemaker like x four seven, but the name of it if it's more if it's a GE Profile. If it's a whirlpool these are microwave hoods, they're almost always called Space makers. And the reason they're called Space makers and they only take a little bit more space up than a hood, they get your microwave off of your countertop, and they give you much so much more space, you get a whole extra cabinets worth of space. So if you put your microwave in a base cabinet underneath the countertop, not only would it be dangerous, you know, some people would put like a regular microwave underneath the countertop in an open cabinet, so that they didn't have doors on it. But then you have to crouch down anyway. And it's like, not the cabinet, the microwave drawers that people put in base cabinets, they're made to be in base cabinets. So then the microwave opens up, you just reach down and pick the thing up from the from the top. And you don't have to crouch down and try to read the controls and everything else. The controls tip out to you when you're standing so you can read them. And then you're accessing everything the top. But that's a very expensive microwave, that's a $1,200 Microwave drawer, and you lost the whole base cabinet or everything but a drawer there to get it. Whereas in a small kitchen, a microwave hood, get you that same microwave, and it's a $300 Microwave instead of a $1,200. And you got a whole extra cabinet out of it.

Jeremy  11:21  
Yeah, that seemed like a no brainer as well done. Don't don't like the idea of my kitchen goes up in flames.

Paul McAlary  11:27  
Well, you know, the one thing that's interesting about kitchen design is that they always say the kitchen is the most dangerous room in the house. But nobody really that knows anything about designing kitchens ever evaluates why kitchens are dangerous. And I would tell you that it's my belief that the reason most kitchens, or the reason most accidents and problems happen in kitchens, is because they're poorly designed. So that's why the kitchen got set on fire was not because there was just a fire on the stove, it was because they put the stove underneath the window. And somebody put curtains on the window, so that the fire on the stove jumped to the curtains. And then the house was on fire, where somebody put the microwave cabinet and there was a fire in the microwave, and the doors were closed, and then the house got set on fire. So there's all of these stories, as kitchen designers we hear about of all of these calamities, and people getting hurt and hitting their fracturing their skull, because there's a cabinet on the wall with nothing underneath it. And they can, you know, bend down to pick something up, forget about it, and then slap their head on it. And all of these different things, but nobody from the insurance company ever identifies that as bad design. They just say it's a home problem, and it happened in the kitchen. So if kitchens aren't designed, well, they shouldn't really be dangerous.

Jeremy  12:45  
Yeah, fair enough. So is that why in some cities or in a city that presume you aren't allowed to put a range directly against a wall? Or is it even is even a regulation?

Paul McAlary  13:00  
Well, if you put a range against the wall, I think there's a International Building Code that most places subscribe to. And an International Building Code, I believe the code is that if you can't really have the range against the wall, unless you have the wall made out of something fireproof. So if you put tile on the wall, then having the range against the wall is no longer that much of a hazard. It's still a hazard, by the way, because the handles of the pots can't be turned out. So if you're using the burners that are against the wall, those handles are turned back across the flames of the other burners. And you might end up burning yourself. But at least it's not going to set the wall on fire if the wall is fireproof with tile or something. But, you know, a lot of localities might go above and beyond a lot of times the building inspectors determine what the building code is, even if it's not written down in their area. They're the law. So if they don't like something where a lot of times if they misunderstand what the rules are, they make their own rules that everybody's got to live by.

Jeremy  14:14  
Yeah, fair, fair, fair enough. Fair enough. Last question for you Paul. what's your what's your take on induction ranges?

Paul McAlary  14:22  
Well, the only thing they work really well people like them because you know the reason people like gas ranges is because the it heats up so fast. So you can you know, if you want to make a really high burn, if you want to have a high heat, you're not waiting for the coils to heat up. And for the pots and everything to heat up. You turn the gas on high your you know, the pan is instantly practically hot and induction will make your pans instantly hot just like a gas firewood. The The only problem is is you have to use the right kitchenware, so all of your pots and pans have to be made for it. induction cooktop, you can't just put like a regular pan on top of the induction cooktop. It's not, it's really not going to work. You have to get new cooking ware. And then you also have to just learn, you know how to use it to be something new. But you know, they're great. They're functional. And then if you don't have gas available, they're the next best solution. mean, one thing I'd say about your design to is looking at all the spaces that you have. What's the little angle that's there? In the living rooms? That's not a fireplace or something? Is it?

Jeremy  15:31  
Oh, are you looking at the floorplan? Yeah. Yeah, so you know, that's, that's currently semi deconstructed. That's a that's a major duck for the building. But I can actually see that does actually much smaller in real life. And it looks like on that floor plan, just like the big black box in the lower right hand corner. You know, it was just an empty dumbwaiter. And now it's space for the kitchen, which is great. But

boy, that was so crazy. Having a dumbwaiter around

you when that was when that was opened up. You can literally see straight to the basement. That's like it's a solid four flights plus decent level free. Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know why you'd have a dumbwaiter and an apartment building but six storeys high, going through like five apartments, but like, whatever. Class Yes, you one more question for sure. All right, flooring in the kitchen. You know, as I mentioned before, right now it's down to the studs. You know, of course, I'm doing like, you know, putting infrastructure into put a new floor. Can I put wood as a floor? My Kitchen is like bamboo cork? What? Like, what are the constraints? Or what would you recommend? For like a nice but like budget conscious kind of solution?

Yeah, it's an apartment building. So your floor is concrete underneath everything?

No, no, right now it's it's a pre war building. So there's just what we've put in the sub floor, etc. It's like tabula rasa. Oh, yeah.

Paul McAlary  17:04  
So well, if you're looking for the most indestructible surface, that would be some kind of tile. So if you didn't like tile nowadays, what's very popular is people getting porcelain tile that looks like wood. They can you can be distressed and wood and you know, very, it will fool you. If you go to fancy restaurants nowadays, most of the time, they are floors that look like distressed wood. They're all actually porcelain tiles that are made to look like distressed wood. So if you if you didn't really like the look of course of tile in your kitchen, you could have it look like wood. And it would then that would look nice, but it's hard on your feet and it's cold. So I don't know if you want it you want tile in your the other parts of your house. So would you continue the kitchen floor out into the your living room? Or what were your What was your plan?

Jeremy  18:01  
Yeah, so the living so actually, I wouldn't the living room and the rest of the house actually is beautiful. I think original floors like 1932 and they're they're parquet. But there's uh, you know, and honestly, before I tore the floor for the kitchen, there was I think there was like no fewer than three or four floors there just stacked. And so there might be like a half inch difference in elevation between the two floors. But otherwise, I you know, I would

Paul McAlary  18:34  
think if it was me, I would probably do it in. If you do it in hardwood or you continue or first off the other hardwood it will be new and it won't match your parquet. And if you did it in Cork or bamboo or something like that, you'll have the same issue. And it won't be horrible. But if you did it in a porcelain tile that even looked like wood, it will be very really attractive. It won't clash like the other floors. So it would clash. And then if you install it correctly, like over Hardy back, excuse me over one Oh, cement board and then cemented down and everything else, it will be indestructible and you will you won't, you won't be able to damage it or hurt it. Or if it was cork or bamboo, you'll scratch your floor pretty quickly probably. So you'll be touching it up or repairing it. I mean cork is very easily damaged. Usually what happens with cork floors is your refrigerator water line has a problem or leaks or you want to pull the refrigerator out and then all of a sudden you pull it out and make a huge scratch on the cork because it's so soft that anything can scratch it pretty much. So God forbid you have a pet like a cat or a dog. They'll dig a hole right in your floor. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a great porcelain tiles indestructible or Are you doing anything with the bathrooms too?

Jeremy  20:02  
Yeah, you know what the bathrooms also gutted right now as well there? You know, neither of them is in touch since like,

Paul McAlary  20:09  
I would make one big recommendation in your bathroom telling, I would get a single bowl instead of two bowls. And the reason I would do that, yes, that yeah, that will give you countertop that you can put shaving stuff and, and hair dryers if you're married, or everybody will have countertop to use with two bowls in that tiny little space, you have no usable countertop space, and no cabinetry underneath. Because there's plumbing pipes everywhere underneath. If you only have one bowl, in your vanity, you'll have countertops that you can use, and drawers and open cabinetry below that you can store stuff like cleaning fluids and stuff and everything else.

Jeremy  20:55  
Yeah, that's, that's super smart. Do you buy? Do you have a take on the 24 by 48 inch tile trends?

Paul McAlary  21:05  
Ah, you know, when you have gigantic you mean, this is for the floor in the kitchen? Or?

Jeremy  21:10  
This is I mean for the bathroom? I mean, I guess we're deviating from the case a little bit. But you brought us here. So I'm gonna ask the question. I'm trying to figure out a time to do it for ceiling tile. And I was just, I mean, I say that prior to 12 by 24 inch was like the most popular thing to go with. And now there's a new, larger form tile that is being pretty widely used. Yeah,

Paul McAlary  21:34  
so the one thing about the, the bigger the tile, the more problematic, it's going to be to install. So for instance, in this 1932 building that you have, you're going to drywall it Yeah. And then you're gonna go to put tile on the wall. And you're not going to realize that every stud is crooked in the whole building. And so there's bulges and all kinds of things sticking out, and you're going to put a 42 inch tile on the wall, it's going to be sticking out a half an inch at one end, when you're not going to be able to adjust it. So if you want to use those top kind of tiles, somebody has to get metal studs, probably that don't have any bows or bends or anything in them and sister all the studs in your whole room to make your kid your bathroom perfectly plumb. So perfectly plumb and level. And on your kitchen floor. The same thing, if you want to use gigantic tiles on your kitchen floor, somebody has to put down a mud bed and make the whole kitchen floor one perfectly smooth surface. So big tiles might be great. But you know, what, especially are you doing any of this work yourself?

Jeremy  22:46  
I not know I'm not, I'm not?

Paul McAlary  22:49  
Well, you know, even even if you're you know, typically what would happen is you would go homeowner would then hire the the tile guys to do the tile work, they would do actually what would be a good job, but the materials you selected made their job impossible, because they're going to come after the whole thing as dry walls. And it's too late for them to install the huge tiles in any kind of way that looks good. So I would keep to it, you know, whatever the the popular tiles are, the people getting them, some are going to be completely and totally successful. Because maybe they have new construction, and maybe everything is perfect for them. And also, maybe they have gigantic rooms that the tile sort of works better in and everything else you got small a small tiny rooms, not much space in old construction that I think these tiles are going to make your your your life, you know, problematic trying to get everything installed. Gotcha. So you might go 13 Three, you might go on a go 13 by 13 or 24 by 13 as the absolute biggest and keep in mind, put like a level on the wall, a four foot level on the wall and run it down the wall just to see, you know, if you have any bellies and bumps and you know bellies are okay, they could be filled in bumps or your problem.

Jeremy  24:13  
Interesting. Yeah, makes sense. All right. Super, super helpful. Insight there, Paul. Thank you.

Paul McAlary  24:18  
And then as far as you're in on your somewhere around us, aren't you?

Jeremy  24:22  
US I actually grew up in I invalid Kenwood, but now I'm closer to New York City.

Paul McAlary  24:29  
Okay, so yeah, so if you're if you're Manhattan, have you thought about a cabinet brand that you might want to get or a style of cabinet or anything else?

Jeremy  24:38  
I've been thinking about, like, you know, basic shaker style, my thoughts are saying like my place for five years and maybe rent it out. And then, you know, I don't want to go to too expensive, but I want them to be like not crap. What What, uh, what?

Paul McAlary  24:55  
Yeah, I would tell you that if you're gonna rent this out and find If yours, then you don't want white painted cabinets. Because painted cabinets are way less durable, and more difficult to touch up than any kind of stained cabinet. So you're probably better off with a stained shaker cabinets than you would be with, you know, a white painted. Or if you're going to get white painted, then after you're done sell the place and don't rent it out because you're the people renting it are not usually very delicate with cabinetry and painted cabinet is very easy to chip, and scratch. And especially when all the spaces are small, you're going to be more likely to have things banging into other things. So your your cabinets will get all chipped up. The reason that the paint is the problem is that, you know, the paint is on the surface of the woods. So if you hit it, you'll chip it off, the stain is actually going into the wood. So if you hit it, you might dent it, but the color is still in the wood. So you'll be you'll have a lot less problems with this, you know, with a rental property and a stained cabinet. So brands that you might want to get. There are a lot of very reasonable cabinet brands that are right, manufactured in Jersey City, so very close to you. So fab, you would would be one, or C and C is an even less expensive brand. But there are others as well. You're at the hub of the US brands that have imported doors from Asia. And those cabinet brands are as well constructed as the most expensive brands that we sell. They're very well made cabinetry. They're just have a really limited door style and finish the selection. So interesting. I would I would look at those, either. Fabulous is the most expensive and nicest, I think of these inexpensive brands. But CNC is probably 20% less expensive than fabric wood. And it's still pretty nice.

Jeremy  27:12  
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, very helpful. I'll check those out, for sure.

Paul McAlary  27:15  
And you'll find that they have like gray stains, and they have a whole bunch of painted finishes, gray paints and white paints. And you can get a white Shaker Cabinet from those brands too. And they won't be less durable than the more expensive brands and white shaker. It's just that white shaker cabinetry, which is the most popular cabinetry right now. It's just very easily damaged. got it got it makes sense. You can have professionals touch it up though. So there are professional furniture finishers that come out they'll touch up a whole kitchen and touch up all the nicks and scratches for like $500 So you could if you had it they can come in at the end and touch it all up. So

Jeremy  27:56  
that's definitely good to know. I mean you I learned a lot on you and you gave me some great insight regarding the kitchen layout but thank you I think for now I think a lot of things to do

Paul McAlary  28:09  
yeah sort of this and you have stuff to have good might have to move but I'll tell you the one thing that affects the thing that affects how much your your when you rent your when you rent this place the thing that will affect how much you get as a rental is the layout of the kitchen and the whole floorplan of the house. And so that's why you know really if you correct anything I mean even I you know if you really want to get technical I don't like the you have French doors in the other bedroom. Do you still have that

Jeremy  28:44  
those are right now cleared out. But yeah, I was thinking about putting in custom eight foot doors in

Paul McAlary  28:54  
so I mean that's really expensive. But would they be French?

Jeremy  28:58  
I doubt my thinking.

Paul McAlary  29:01  
So I mean, I mean that's the thing is that looks really good. But it ruins you have a small apartment so these doors have to swing. So when you open them they swing into the room and make the living space unusable. So you will be better a pocket to pocket doors that don't open into the space. And you know, you can't have a chair you can't have you just imagine if you want to keep the doors open from that bedroom into the other room. Then that when the doors are open, it might they might hit the bed or you can't get past the bed or you can't get you can't have a chair on the wall. If you made them pocket doors or one pocket door. It might not be what you want but you know it would be less problematic or maybe barn doors if you want to be really trendy short that will be anything will be better than big huge doors that open into a tiny space and ruin that the we call the space stat doors take up travel space. So you don't want to make excess travel space in a small apartment. So, you know, there's a lot of good things to be said about not having doors at all there. So if you got rid of your doors, then you could then have a couch on that right where those doors are. And then the couch, you could have a TV on the wall to the left of your stools, and then people on the stools could turn sideways, look at the TV, people on the couch could sit there people on you could have another couch on the window on the other side, you could have suddenly your your living room would see 10 people or nine people comfortably with a TV on the wall, you put doors in that space. And now, you know, it doesn't really even work as a room anymore. You just made travel space going straight through the middle of the room, when you already had an entrance into that bedroom. If you wanted to get a little light in that bedroom, you could make close it up, but put a transom on top with the door was just to give you some light into the room. And but then make that make it more functional space. So I mean, really that's that's sort of that's sort of the theory behind you know, interior design is we're trying to you know, you have a limited you have your like the perfect example, you have a limited amount of space, you should be designing to get make that space as usable as possible, not employ design elements that you might like in a in a mansion.

Jeremy  31:33  
Sure know that the call says alright, thank you. Yeah, I get that. Thank you. I really appreciate your time. Again,

Paul McAlary  31:42  
all right, good luck.

Jeremy  31:43  
Great. Cheers.

Felipe  31:56  
I'm Felipe are Chela, the producer of calls with Paul. I was thinking about, you know, designing this this apartment, or this kitchen. And it's a very tight space. So as a kitchen designer, do you enjoy the challenge of designing a really tight space? Or do you love the freedom to kind of go crazy with a big space? Or kind of, is there a difference? Like, do you like them for different reasons?

Paul McAlary  32:25  
Well, it's a good, it's a really good question. I mean, one of the things is that in everybody's kitchen, whether it's usually, unless it's an absolutely gigantic space, the job is almost always the same is that you want to use the space well, but your inclination is to try to jam too much stuff in the space. And especially in a really tight space, you want to use the space well, so you want the space to be designed well. But if you make it so tight, that you can't turn around, you're going to be maybe burning yourself and spilling hot oil on yourself and all kinds of other things. So you still, you know, even if it's a tiny kitchen, we're you know, we were always constrained by the dimensions of the space and we're trying to maintain, you know, these safe distances that actually work. And you can only do what you can do so something has to get smaller. If you want to have more space, you and you're in a tight kitchen, maybe your refrigerator has to get smaller, maybe your stove has to become a 24 inch wide stove, instead of a 30 inch wide stove. Maybe you're almost always your microwave, if you want to have one has to go over your stove, if you're in a very tight space, because that gets the microwave off the countertop. It gives you a microwave and a fan and a light and those other things. But you know, up until you get to really really big kitchens. The strategy to design somebody's kitchen is designed the best use of the space first, and then just fill in whatever is leftover. You know, a lot of times people come to us wanting to do the opposite. Here's my wish list of I would like a cabinet that has a mixer that lifts up. I would like a cabinet that has a pantry thing that it all pulls out. I would like a cabinet that I can pull down to bring spices and things down to the countertop or you know many different kinds of gadgets that they would like to have. Well, the gadgets are great, but you don't design your kitchen around those things. You design the kitchen to be a good use of the space and then you look around and you say hey, did you want to have a thing that pulled down for the countertop? Would you want to have a spice pull out under the countertop or you know or usually if you have the mixer that lifts up out of the countertop are very unusual devices in the kitchen. That's when you have to have a really big kitchen, because you're not going to be adding those individual things until you've already gotten a couple of have cabinets for pots and pans, a couple of you know, all the different kinds of things that you're going to need. It's always a challenge. And always the best designers are the designers that are able to steer their customer to get those good design choices.

Felipe  35:18  
And your call with Jeremy, I know that he had a pretty tight space, so it kind of started spilling over into the bathroom, or the terms like talking about bathroom design, the discussion of like the travel space for doors, you know, do you ever moonlight it's like a bathroom designer or an interior designer in addition to kitchen designs.

Paul McAlary  35:41  
Sure, because usually kitchen, the cost of the materials for renovating your kitchen, especially if you have a relatively big kitchen, or you know, not inexpensive, like probably the average kitchen sale that we have, in the least expensive brand that we carry. You know, the houses around here aren't particularly small, but might be $13,000 in cabinetry. And you know, that's not a gigantic kitchen, that's a relatively small kitchen, but it's still $13,000 in cabinetry. And then people's countertops might be $3,000. And their appliances might be three or $4,000. And then you have sinks, faucets, handles, flooring, backsplash, tile, lighting, the materials that they're buying, for an average sized kitchen in this area might very well total up to $25,000. And then the construction costs, if they just replaced everything in the room, the way it was, might be $20,000 right there, because they're gonna have to run new electric lines, they're going to have to put recessed lighting in the ceiling, under cabinet lighting, they're going to have to rehook up all the appliances and backsplash tile and flooring and everything else. So it's quite likely, if we move stuff around and make some changes, or major changes, even they might be spending $25,000 on construction. So now you got a $50,000 project. So the reason I'm giving you that number is if you're spending $50,000 on this kitchen, rearranging all of the walls and the whole, all of the rooms and the whole first floor of your house is not going to be that much more expensive there already have contractors there, they're already ripping stuff apart. They're already doing flooring, they're already doing all the elements. If it was $5,000 Extra or something like that, you'd be spending $55,000 That, you know, that's only 10% of the cost of the project. If you splurged and didn't get the least expensive cabinets from us, and you got custom cabinets, your cabinets might be $30,000. Well, it makes no sense spending an extra $15,000 on cabinets when the layout of your home could be improved. So the answer your question is we redesign the whole first floor people's homes all the time. Because the cost of a kitchen is the your kitchen and your your kitchen and your bathrooms when you build a new home account for like, almost 35 40% of the cost of the whole home. So that's so much money that when you're redoing the major part of that, which is the kitchens, then, you know, there's no you don't do it makes no sense to do it. Without fixing anything else. We always say I always say we're trying to debunk a fi people's homes. So take the funky out of their home and rearrange it so that it looks nice. And it's functional, then you know, that's what you want to do. And don't splurge on cabinetry and don't splurge on appliances. And don't splurge on all the other materials that you're buying for your kitchen until you do funkified The first floor of your home because you're not you're not getting the money back unless you fix those those things.

Mark Mitten  38:58  
Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com

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