Paul McAlary 0:01 Can you hear me up? Yeah. Great. Welcome to call the Paul. So what can we? How can we help you suddenly, you need to move to a different state something you win the lottery, who knows what it is? Well, now you can't sell your house because nobody wants soffits. Hello, welcome to calls with Paul, in this episode Sam calls in. And like most of our customers is really concerned about trying to pick the right brand of cabinet for her, that's going to be the best value, the best quality, etc. And really like all customers that call us up, we would tell her that there are lots of good brands, we rate them on our website. They all have, you know, the ones that we rate well have different advanced some small differences and advantages and disadvantages based on the different price lines. But generally, all customers should stop worrying so much about brands, and worry more about design. The designs that they're considering usually are not so great. And even after they've gotten the good design, the designer themselves is so important that they're working with that. In reality, even if they didn't if they paid a few $100 or even $500 or even $1,000 More getting to work with a better designer in the long run is going to get them a much better kitchen. You know, we answer some of those questions about cabinet lines and how cabinets are made and framed and frameless calls with Sam. But I would tell listeners to keep in mind that the mantra our company tries to beat or though the drum our company tries to beat is that please worry about design first and cabinetry second. Hi, Sam, can you hear me up? Yeah. Great. Welcome to call the Paul. So what can we? How can we help you? sam 2:07 So I studied all of your posts about kitchen cabinets, in particular, the one about where you shouldn't compare cabinet pricing, like different companies pricing against each other because of the quality of the differences. Right? Well, it's exactly that. Yeah. Paul McAlary 2:27 I just said it gets very hard to compare apples to apples in cabinet lines. I know. Because there's so much so many things, if you go from one place to another, you don't know whether the kitchen designer, you know, if you're in the same company, like if your kitchen designer carries three different brands, they're probably going to, you know, do tell you every difference that there is or that they're forced to do from one brand to another so you can better make a decision. But once you go from one shop to another, you know, the next designer that's doing it may very well be making changes and doing things that you won't notice and you don't realize you're getting something less and without being told. So that's the sam 3:15 right. Well, I got a quote for a fabby wood. And it was a little expensive, more than I was hoping it was, you know, around the 10 12,000 range for a tent, like a 12 by 12 kitchen. Okay, and I then went to a different place and they were giving me perimeter quote for Montra, which I don't see on your site. But then an island quote from ultra craft, which is a little bit less than February. And now as a monkey wrench where I've found a third quote using waypoints. And so I went down this rabbit hole trying to understand how is waypoint a better brand. I see a lot of mixed reviews I saw you rated it like in the BS. So I just I'm trying to really compare waypoint to Contra. I think value it is definitely out of our price. Point. Buy Paul McAlary 4:14 think about fabric what is fabulous, it is not really that expensive. So the fabric would could be out of your price range. Well first off mantra, mantra and is ready to assemble cabinet I believe and it's certainly in a whole different class. And you don't have a kitchen design person helping you with mantra Do you don't you? Aren't you're ordering them online? sam 4:41 No, I'm going through a kitchen design. Paul McAlary 4:45 So you just look up mantra just saw I understand that. sam 4:50 It wasn't that savvy word was out of our budget is just as these two quotes are less so obviously I'm going to consider less if I can save money. Well how am I going to sacrifice Somebody's, like three $4,000, depending on like, different selections are a little different, actually no about $3,000 I'd say. Paul McAlary 5:09 Like, in fact, you would what door style and finish where you're looking at sam 5:13 just the white shaker for my perimeter cabinet and the island would be the gray color of cobblestone. Speaker 1 5:22 Okay? So both of those door styles are pretty good values, if you were getting there, if you got, you know, are looking at galaxy is the door style. There's also yeah, there's no rule that two different dealers are charging the same amount for the same animal. So fab, you would at one dealer, the exact same kitchen could be 20%, less at another fab, you would dealer. So there's no the dealers that they manufacturers don't tell us how much we have to sell the cabinets for, we can sell them for anything we feel like it. So that's why even going from, you know, even in the same cabinet line, you might get different prices. But I'm just looking at Montra. So Montra is really pretty Paul McAlary 6:10 rough. I mean, just look at they're in they don't really list. They're very limited in in the the cabinetry that they carry, and the styles and everything that they carry. They don't really show me exactly how their cabinetry is made. So I Yeah, we don't rate them on our website because they don't offer enough information. But the thing about that is, if you have something to brag about, you usually brag about it. So when somebody doesn't tell you how their cabinets are made, it's not a comforting thing. And then Ultra craft is a frameless cabinet that's not a framed cabinet. So even if you did your island in Ultra craft, it's going to look a little different than than a frame cabinet in Montreux or any other brand just because the overlay of the doors is going to be greater a frameless cabinet the doors are a little bit tighter than a frame cabinet and it's certainly not that well made. It's certainly a lesser constructed cabinet than the fab you would. sam 7:21 Okay, you would read that like inferior to start with no, Paul McAlary 7:26 it's a it's going to be all particleboard sides. It's not going to be plywood, so the sides and it's a frameless cabinet so in fab you would the hinges in the tracks and your doors all are attached to the front solid wood frame that's on the cabinet. Ultra craft is a more contemporary kind of way to make a cabinet. It's really pretty that pretty much the same thing as IKEA. So it's particle board and it's got the same thickness and sides I believe as IKEA and this the hinges are in the sides of the cabinets. So if a little kid or somebody hangs on a door or you open it too hard, and the hinge rips out of the side of the cabinet, there's no way to repair that. So it's just you have to be more delicate with frameless cabinets that the reason most people get frameless cabinets is if you want to really contemporary slab, modern door style. The frameless cabinets do that in the look comes out much better because the cabinet doors are just a lot tighter between door to door and door to drawer front. sam 8:36 Got it? I guess from specs standpoint like the MDF also has an MDF I mean I'm sorry module has an MDF center panel. That it does have plywood box construction and three quarter inch thick shells that the sides are laminate. Paul McAlary 8:55 The sides of the cabinet are our laminate in their lap they're laminate over plywood or what were the sides made? sam 9:07 No, no I think I think the sides are laminate. Paul McAlary 9:11 So then it's maybe maybe their particle board and with laminate over them on the sides. So the real reason that we worry about particle board versus plug in MDF on the center panel is is actually a good thing. In fab you would Galaxy door that middle panel, everything else is all wood in fact you would but that middle panel is MDF too. And that's really a good thing because they MDF panel doesn't shrink or expand or contract. And so you're you're not going to there's not going to be if the door the temperature in your home changes you won't see any kind of missing paint where a door might have shrank. Also MDF doesn't warp like plywood does. So it's going to hold the door and keep it more likely from warping all the As things would be, you know, warrantied not to happen. But you know, it's also nice not to have to be replacing things going into the future, especially after a couple of years. If something warped or you had a problem, then you might order a replacement part and the paint might have aged slightly, and it might not be a perfect match to your original cabinet. Right, so, so yeah, so I don't worry about the middle panel. But when the sides are particleboard, it's not the base cabinets that are really a problem, except for maybe the end cabinets on the bases that are totally exposed. But the wall cabinets that are hanging on the wall, are just a lot less structurally sound. So the particle board doesn't really hold glue, and screws and nails and anything anywhere near as well as plywood does. So if everything's the same on a wall cabinet, and then you stack a whole bunch of stuff in your wall cabinet, it's quite likely that the attachment or the the way the back of the cabinet meets the side of the cabinet, that glue and everything else is going to fail on a on a particle board cabinet. So if you overload particle board wall cabinets, they're gonna fall off the wall probably eventually. sam 11:15 So that would also apply to like a pantry that has the same Paul McAlary 11:19 No, because a pantry is tall, and it sits on the floor. So you're probably fine with the pin, anything that sits on the floor has all the weight transferred to the floor, right wall cabinets are hanging on the wall. And the only thing holding them on the wall is the back panel that screw to the wall is never going to come off the wall, whether it's particle board or plywood, probably that that back panel is going to be attached to the wall. But the the attachment between the back of the cabinet and the side of the cabinet, if it's plywood is going to be a lot stronger. So you know, especially if you had a cabinet sitting by itself. The good thing about the frame cabinets is if you have you know a whole row of cabinets, the one cabinet will be screwed to the cabinet next to it will be screwed to the cabinet next to it will be screwed to the cabinet. And next to that. So essentially, your cabinets are all becoming one big cabinet. And that's the other good thing about frame cabinets is the fronts are solid wood. And that's where you're supposed to be screwing the cabinets together. So you're screwing solid wood to solid wood. So the likelihood of all of this falling apart is less. But when it's just one single cabinet, maybe in your kitchen sitting by itself on the wall. Well now it might only have two screws, attaching it to the wall, one on top and one on the bottom. And everything else is just you know, that's those two screws are holding up all the stuff that you're putting in that cabinet. sam 12:49 So what do you what do you what is your opinion about waypoint? Paul McAlary 12:53 So waypoint I think is a know of unknown quantity, we rate them, I think they're not quite as nice as the Fabula would. But I think they're pretty well made. I mean, we've, you know, some of is so many lines, and we've rated them and then they change them. And then we have to make sure that we're up to date with the changes. Let me just look at how I rate waypoint. How much less was waypoint sam 13:21 three that was 3000 less than Saudi would. Paul McAlary 13:26 So I don't know why I don't why I'm not a fan of waypoint. But they get a B and A B. So I can look up now and find find out why they get a B and A B, they're probably they're doing something that we don't like the look up what it is. The other thing about the FAB, you would too is sometimes the designers if you're at a different place, when you were at the FAB, you would so the probably the P anybody that would sell the Montra would be sort of I would assume a much less expensive kind of cabinet place. And then the way point, you know, that would normally, you know, is an unusual line for a regular dealer to carry. Whereas some dealers like us and some other dealers that would carry very expensive cabinetry would also carry fab you would. So sometimes you're in a slightly fancier place, when you're getting a price for fab you would. And then that doesn't mean that they're charging you more necessarily, they certainly could be. But a lot of times the fancier designers are gonna do things that you might not even have noticed, they might put matching door panels on the sides of of your island, for instance, because they're just used to doing it. They want things to look more finished. So they put finished panels on the end that can increase the price of your kitchen by 10 or 20%. So you really have to look at the pictures carefully to make sure that the designers that the guy that did the fab you it wasn't putting panels on the sides of your island, maybe on the sides of the exposed To wall cabinets or, or base cabinets, and that the the other designers that were doing the mantra and the waypoint, were doing what comes naturally to them, which would be just down and dirty, just pricing out the kitchen as simply as possible. sam 15:14 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Paul McAlary 15:17 You can also if you, if you they give you pictures of the two different things, does any of these places give you like pictures of their designs? Yeah. So if you have pictures, you can also call into our broadcast, and you can email us the designs, we can look at them. And we can say, Oh, look at this, these two things aren't the same. Not only that, but we're totally happy to critique people's designs. So, you know, people send us their designs to critique on our blog all the time, and they're full of mistakes. So we catch tons and tons and tons of mistakes. And not only that, but you know, a lot of times make recommendations to improve it design. You know, generally, especially if you're on a budget, the thing, it's probably better to not even splurge on fab you would, but to splurge on some kind of construction change, if it helps your kitchen a lot. So what I mean by that is, you know, sometimes the people's doorway might, your doorway might be in a bad position. If we change the doorway between your dining room in your kitchen, suddenly, we can make the whole kitchen a better place. And that would be a better thing to do. And more, you know, even if it cost you $800 To move the door, or something like that, or $500 that would be way better than you know, you know, you could add a bunch of these different things. Take out the soffits on top of your cabinets, if you had some people have soffits on top of their cabinets, you know what that is with a ceiling comes down? Yeah. So do you have that or not? You know, sam 16:50 we're taking, we're taking those down. So yeah, so Paul McAlary 16:52 if you're redoing your kitchen, you shouldn't be doing it if you're not taking those down, because they're so unpopular now having the soffits that if you redid your whole kitchen, and you know, and then everybody doesn't intend on selling their house. So even if it made you happy, and it didn't matter to you, you know, two to two weeks after your kitchen has done somebody's job changes, suddenly, you need to move to a different state something you win the lottery, who knows what it is? Well, now you can't sell your house because nobody wants soffits and all the money you just plowed into your new kitchen. So you certainly if somebody was doing this, for instance, in fab you would and keeping their soffits, that would be crazy. You would want to do the waypoint, save the $2,000 and take out the soffits because then your house would be more valuable. So you know, waypoint still gets bees from us. So it's not like it's horrible. Okay, there's also other lines that might that are probably less than fab, you would. And I think I like better than waypoint like C and C. Well, j and k is a nice line too. That's less expensive. But I know that particular line is having delays right now. So that might not be helpful. But I mean, there's even where are you located? New Jersey. So CNC is a really popular brand in New Jersey. So it's less expensive than fab you would it's definitely has some disadvantages to fab you would, but the construction of CNC is really well done. So it's a very well constructed cabinet. And they have two shaker white door styles. And they have nice grays. They have a really inexpensive door that's MDF, unfortunately in white. It's not MDF in their gray. But it's not quite a full overlay. But that door style. If you were doing gray instead of painted, it's 30% less than fab you would, but they're all wood Shaker Door and CNC. It's about 15 probably more like 20% less than fab you would, and it's just as well constructed. sam 19:01 Great. I'll check those out. Thank you so much for your time. And Paul McAlary 19:04 yeah, sure. And just be careful of the CNC because they have one that you're going to get a price for for the Shaker Door. That's 40 something 5% less than the fab you would so it's going to be like, you know, valued was 12 You'll get a price. If you are flipping your house, it would be the smartest thing you could do. It's a really nice cabinet really well made, but the Shaker Door is on on the painted white color is MDF. And so that one is just trying to remember the name of the line but it's not quite a full overlay door, but it's really inexpensive. But you just want to make sure that you're not getting that when you get a price. sam 19:50 Okay, thank you so Paul McAlary 19:51 much. All right, Sam. Felipe 20:06 You were listening to calls with Paul, the kitchen design Podcast. I'm Felipe are Chela, the producer of calls with Paul. And at the end of each episode, I sit down with Paul and ask him a few questions about the call we just heard, as well as anything else I can think of. So Paul, as a consumer, is there something that I should be on the lookout for as we talk about these different cabinet lines in terms of quality? Like, can I look at some a website or a brochure and see what are like the key signs that I'm working with a quality manufacturer here? Paul McAlary 20:42 So good question, Philippe. So I would say that the things in common with all brands of cabinetry to make them well constructed is that the size of the cabinets the box of the cabinet, in a framed cabinet, which is there's two different ways to make cabinets framed and frameless. A framed cabinet has a solid wood frame on the front, which has lots of advantages and is certainly more durable. But in either of these brands, the size of the cabinets, the tops the bottom of the shows, you want to be all plywood, and not to be particleboard. So you're looking for a cabinet, that's all plywood construction. If it's a frame cabinet, it has a solid wood frame on the front. And then the next most important thing is that everything is soft, close, the drawers are so off close the hinges are so up close. Those are the things that really beat up the cabinet them closing hard, or drawers slamming, having them be soft closed, makes them the cabinetry last longer. And then usually, when you automatically get that upgrade to soft closed doors and drawers, you also get much better hinges and a better drawer box usually always be a solid wood dovetail drawer. So really once you upgrade, and many times if you just upgrade to the plywood, those of all of those other things will come with it. But those are the things that you're looking for in any brand. Felipe 22:11 My wife and I were joking around. But as we talked about putting the emphasis more on the kitchen design, and then having the cabinet you know, have that come out follow basically, depending on what the design is, how often do you get customers or clients who want to incorporate like a dog bed or like a drawer to pull out for the cat bowl or something to that? Is it? Does that come up a lot in your designs? Paul McAlary 22:38 And the answer to that question is yes, it does. Everybody has their own individual needs. And lots of people have pets. So incorporating their their pets are going to be underfoot in their kitchen, and, and need places to maybe have their dog dish or cat bowl or whatever. And so, you know, there are kitchens that we've designed that have sleeping places for the for the pets built into the kitchen, and lots of different kitchens that have places for dog dishes and cat dishes, so that your cat can have their meal and not be underfoot and not you know, you're not stepping on their bowl when you walk in the back door and flipping all their food and water all over the place. So, in fact, in the past, or in people's kitchens that were designed a while ago, the most common thing we see is desk areas that have been converted simply to places where the dog or cat has their bowls, etc. Because nobody actually we're read very rarely nowadays, does anybody sit at a desk facing a wall. So it's a much better place to put your dog or cat ball and you know, and we sort of incorporate that but, you know, a lot of times it doesn't even you know, the cabinetry doesn't need to leave that much room for a cat. So you can get yourself a little more cabinetry or whatever and still have that same kind of area. But good question. Felipe 24:08 Do you think my dog was howling in the other room? Recording that would just be so tough and about the exactly we know. So in the first episode, I got some some flack for mispronouncing the name of the town that your office is located in so so once and for all for everybody out there at home. We are recording live from beautiful Paul McAlary 24:33 ballad Kenwood. Kenwood is I think you looked it up and it's all Welsh, isn't it originally. Felipe 24:40 So yeah, so yeah, I tried pronouncing it the way Google Translate said it would be pronounced in Welsh and apparently that's that's just not how it really is. And I got Paul McAlary 24:50 the unsafe falconwood I'm not sure how this school expressway is supposed to be pronounced. But all of these things are whatever they're They're now how we pronounce them. And it's probably wrong but it's well we pronounce it Valkenburg Mark Mitten 25:08 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality, custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai