Mark Mitten 0:06 Are you getting a new kitchen? But your townhouse needs defunkifying? You better call Paul. Paul McAlary 0:18 Jennifer, this is Paul, can you hear me? Jennifer 0:21 Yeah, I can. Hi. Paul McAlary 0:22 Wonderful. Welcome the calls with Paul, we've talked before just to start off where we left off, I looked at pictures of your kitchen. And we talked about it a little bit. And actually, you would had similar thoughts from one's I had. Right. Now you've sent me your floor plan that I'm looking at. I'm looking at it. And let me just ask you a few questions. Like one thing that came up when we talked about your design before, was venting your code outside? And then you're in a condo type community. So you're worried that they're not going to allow you to do that? Are you in like an attached home? The side of your kitchen that has a stove on it? That's not an excuse? Is that an exterior wall? Or is that Jennifer 1:08 that is not? No, it's not an exterior wall? And then Paul McAlary 1:11 it's not an exterior wall anywhere along there. So how are they venting out? The dryer? For example? Unknown Speaker 1:18 Yeah. So if you and you can look at it and see it for yourself if you still have the Zillow or whatever listing up. But the pictures in the back show it in between the balconies, or whatever they're called. There are dryer vents. And they're like, very visible from the from the, from the from the water side. Paul McAlary 1:45 So it's going out the over your deck that's on the front of that. Unknown Speaker 1:50 Yes, yes. Well, sort of next to it. Yeah. And so I was reading, we had talked about whether or not I would be able to hook into that. And apparently I cannot, because of the like the fire potential, like with the grease that would be coming from the from the oven, Paul McAlary 2:09 or you have to talk to a plumber. Also, it depends on how far away that you're connecting to this. Unknown Speaker 2:15 Right. Yeah, so it's not very far, it's probably, Paul McAlary 2:19 maybe you have to go through. You have to go through the hole again, to get to the outside deck area, Jennifer 2:25 right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, so I put a call in to the HOA, but I haven't heard back about whether or not I could add an external. Yeah, so if they're, they don't care what I do internally, they'll only care about how it affects the outside appearance. And so you know, if it's possible to do, I would probably add something, you know, that just goes below wherever that vent is through the wall, if that's possible, or I could do something behind the cap, like, behind the cabinetry and like run something out, like, like, if I built like a blanket over the, like behind the kitchen in that breakfast snack area could run it down there. Paul McAlary 3:05 You could also have a soffit. Right? That wouldn't be that truce of if it came down six inches or whatever from the ceiling. And only in your design, you have that wall that we have to the left of your stove that we don't really know what's in it right now. Unknown Speaker 3:22 Well, there's a sprinkler, even the one that sticks out one that has Paul McAlary 3:25 a sprinkler, so you got the sprinkler lines, but moving them or you could also maybe make that wall shallower. And if it was one foot deep instead of 27 inches deep, then you could the you could maybe even move the sprinkler to the soffit that's going across, but the whole thing Jennifer 3:47 I have a feeling I have a feeling that I'm not going to be able to move the sprinklers. Because of you know, fire codes and all that kind of stuff. And there's a there's a sprinkler that's that's pointed towards the breakfast nook and a sprinkler pointed toward the kitchen. So I would have to figure out a way to get sprinklers you know, going either direction. And I just have a feeling that it would be really, really hard to get to change that. So I'm thinking I'm gonna have to need that. But of course, I definitely will ask and that would affect things dramatically if I could move that. But I wouldn't have a feeling I'm not going to be able to move anything based on like, I've seen a lot of other units. And nobody's really made a lot of like, major changes. I Paul McAlary 4:27 just tell you like, I would just stop you I would tell you that homeowners are very resistant to making changes. So generally people don't change anything. You know, they don't necessarily realize the benefits of of making the change. So I couldn't be Jennifer 4:42 in the agency. The HOAs are resistant. Paul McAlary 4:45 No, no the homeowners themselves that I'm buying contractors to write the homeowners end the contract. Yeah. Or resist? Yeah, so generally, I'm just Jennifer 4:55 I'm just afraid the HOA will probably say no and that And that I wouldn't get the certificate of occupancy issued if I didn't do it exactly right, and all that stuff to have to do everything, right. Paul McAlary 5:08 But it shouldn't make a difference. You have to you got to get up to the ceiling to do these things. But then once you hit the ceiling, I don't know why the sprinklers actually work better from a ceiling location than they work from a wall location. So Jennifer 5:24 they're currently on the wall, right, that little wall on either side? Paul McAlary 5:28 Well, they work better in the ceiling than they do in the wall. So I Jennifer 5:32 could do I could do the ceiling, because you know, we own the floor above. So I could do something like that. I don't know, I'll find out. But in the meantime, I don't honestly, I'm feeling kind of hopeless. Paul McAlary 5:45 Well, I would tell you that the reason that they're in the wall is only because people are lazy. That's That's why they're in the wall and moving into the ceiling. They work better when they're in the ceiling. And as long as everything is according to building code, then the HOA shouldn't and it's interior to your home. That's not something HOA should really be involved in, I wouldn't think right? The smaller that becomes, even if you had to have the lines get up to the ceiling. And you could reduce the depth of that wall to 12 inches from 27 inches. That's a difference. Because Jennifer 6:23 yeah, I could wrap I could wrap counter around it right, Paul McAlary 6:26 then you could have countertop come around it. But also, it wouldn't be obscuring the countertop and anybody that was sitting there and everything, the whole design is going to work better with that change. Yeah, you know, venting your stove outside is something that that might certainly be a problem. If they're not going to let you put another hole underneath your deck is Jennifer 6:49 actually in the siding. Yeah, exactly. Paul McAlary 6:52 Is there a deck on the floor above? No, there's not. When you're standing on the deck, this dryer vent is staring at you above your head to the right. Jennifer 7:02 To the right, yeah, you can it's on the wall in between the deck site. Paul McAlary 7:09 There's a couple of different designs that sort of work. The first thing I think you want to do, too, is rip out your pantry closet and make it a pantry cabinet. Because if you make it a pantry cabinet, the advantage of that is going to be that now you can have a panel on the left side of your refrigerator if your refrigerator was going to stay in that location. And then a wall cabinet over the top that would be flush with the face of the pantry and your whole refrigerator area is going to be built in and the refrigerator door if you get a counter depth refrigerator, both refrigerator doors if you got a side by side the freezer and the refrigerator if you got a French door refrigerator, both the doors will open all the way the problem you have when you have a pantry closet. When you put moldings on top of your cabinets, either the moldings die into the pantry cabinet, which looks the best. And then your refrigerator has to be pulled forward past all this molding and everything and it sticks out much farther, I think you'll want a counter refrigerator. And then if you switch to a pantry cabinet, the whole thing will be built in in and the molding will die into the wall that you know is the laundry room wall. Instead of Jennifer 8:28 now having this already we're saying that might it might be advantageous to put my refrigerator on the other side on that wall. Paul McAlary 8:36 That's I mean, there's lots of that that's one of the different designs, that's a possibility. If you keep your refrigerator where it sorta is, that's what I would do with that particular space. If you're going to move your refrigerator over to the other side and you're gonna do like an L shaped kitchen coming off where your stove is now. Then, you know if your elbows coming off that side, maybe one way to do it that might sort of give you some pantry storage and look a little bit built in is you get rid of the whole sink area if you're looking at your floor plan and you put a frigerator sunk half is 12 inches into the face of the powder room so that the box of the refrigerator is going to stick 12 inches proud of the powder room wall and then the powder room wall you'll put a 12 inch deep pantry on the powder room wall and you'll build a wall on the back of the refrigerator that will pretty much be you know around the same distance. And as maybe the wall is almost a little bit even probably in from where it is now while it is now and then you'd have your refrigerator and then you put a panel on the side of the refrigerator and you could actually countertop after that to your FDA coming out of your refrigerator and these cabinets are coming out 12 inches, then your countertop out, maybe you'd want to end around the same place as just like your sort of your angry countertop in sort of around the same as your little wall is out ends, this countertop could end also sort of around a similar place. And that would be great. If you really wanted to hide this countertop a little bit better. From the great room, you could make it what it is now it's a half wall coming up now, isn't it, I don't remember the pictures. But it is in the run as a half wall coming up in backyard sink. Jennifer 10:47 It's a it's a breakfast, or whatever you call it, Paul McAlary 10:50 it's it's kind of elevated, it's a little bit higher than your sink. Yes, it's Jennifer 10:54 the two level Yeah, Paul McAlary 10:56 you could put a wall and back of the countertop, that's there, that would help hide any appliances that you put on the on the countertop, there were a coffee maker, people wouldn't be staring at everything that was on the countertop, that was on the Jennifer 11:09 quest question to them with the with the with the countertop there then be like, like, the width of the fridge. Paul McAlary 11:18 If you had the half wall, the half wall would come right out from with the back wall of the frigerator would be and then top would come out. You know, usually you want the panel on the side of your refrigerator to be maybe 26 inches deep. Okay, instead of 24. So that the countertop dies into the panel that that will be on the left side of the refrigerator here then you would you would do is you would either make your pantry cabinets two inches deep, or make them 14 inches deep instead of 12. And then the wall cabinet that's over the refrigerator, you'd pull that forward two inches, you know, put a two by four and some blocking and back so that you when you hung that cabinet it was flush with the pantries that were now 14 inches deep instead of 12. And then the panel on the refrigerator closes the refrigerator and and then the base cabinets are 24 inches deep. And then what all the reason that we're doing this is also that your countertop dies into the panel on the left side of the refrigerator. Jennifer 12:27 Even on the left side or the right side, Paul McAlary 12:30 the panel into the right side of the refrigerator on the right on the left. Okay, just to make sure I'm picturing this correctly. I'm gonna hand draw it for you to if would ever be arrived at fridge itself will sit back of the powder room wall by however many inches. Right? Yes. Okay, and then so the wall would come out from whatever it is say, I don't know, something like 12 inches or whatever, from the powder room wall halfway out and then die at the panel on the right side of the fridge. And then the countertop would be behind a half wall. Yeah, in front of countertop is kind of built, you're gonna take out all your the cabinetry that's there. Now, you're going to build, essentially, you're going to build a wall house, say it's 12 inches back or you could build you know, build the wall, 14 inches back if you wanted to. And then you could do 12 inch pantry cabinets. It's whatever you decide, but you build a wall and it's a full wall, full height of the refrigerator. And then actually, I think what you're going to want it to do is actually come out of make it a little bit longer than the refrigerator because you're going to want molding on top of these cabinets and you're going to want the molding to die into the wall. So the wall will actually stick out a little bit past the the level of the refrigerator once it gets three inches past the refrigerator panel, it's going to change from a wall going floor to the ceiling to suddenly become a wall that's only 42 inches high and then continued out 42 inches at the 42 inch height until you get to the distance where you want your base cabinets and your countertops and everything to stop. Okay, Jennifer 14:15 got it. So then on the other side, I would be making an L Paul McAlary 14:22 shape the other side you're going to be making an L and then you're like Jennifer 14:28 if I can if I can at least reduce that wall like you were saying to 12 inches then I can wrap that countertop around that wall how far into the breakfast nook Do you think I would go Paul McAlary 14:40 so part of it is also your budget. So your deck right now I'm trying to understand your deck I guess that's a sliding door from the Finder. And then the great room is that just a window looking out onto the deck. Jennifer 14:55 No no deck window oh the window on on the on the deck Yeah, that's the window looking onto the deck. From the great, great room. The great room is like a double height. You know, feeling thing. Paul McAlary 15:08 Well, okay, but it's a window. Jennifer 15:10 There's nothing above it. Paul McAlary 15:12 If when you're in the in the great room, there's a window looking out onto the deck. It's not another door. Yes. Okay. So the reason I just asked that is and then what do you have with that window? Is Is that how it depending on how you're furnished it? Is there a chair in front of that window or a couch in front of that window? Or what's in front of them? Jennifer 15:32 We haven't we haven't decided yet, but I have a feeling that we'll get a sectional sofa that's gonna go along the wall. Paul McAlary 15:41 Okay, yeah, you have to really sort of figure out how big you want your table in your breakfast look, and you definitely want to figure these things out in advance, right? You don't want to be buying admits and uh, stealing some of your breakfast nook, and then you planning on getting a really big table in your breakfast nook, and not working. So Jennifer 16:02 we don't want a big we don't want a big table, just a small table. So what I was wondering about was like building like a banquette, either along that wall or something like that behind the L, is that something that would be advisable or now? Paul McAlary 16:16 Well, the problem with banquettes is that first off, they're not inexpensive because someone has to build them. And then And then if you're sitting at this banquette, then you because you're you have this sliding door you want to go to the bank get that your building is only going to have people slipping into one side. So the side that they slip into will be the wall to the right, you know the same way that the stove is on, it's not really going to look very much like a banquette, it's gonna really be just a bench that goes along that wall. And then the question is, what kind of tables do you have? So, Jennifer 16:57 we're buying, we're buying all new furniture for this place, so we can buy whatever we want. Paul McAlary 17:01 So if your goal is to make your kitchen cabinetry as big as possible, the shape Jennifer 17:06 actually not, it's actually not and I'll tell you why. I don't really own a lot of like, you know, stuff, I'm very minimalist and so I don't need a ton of storage, you know, but like I told you before, like, like I want, I want whatever I have, I want to be more at my fingertips. So it's really important to me to maximize my storage around my workspaces and not put it somewhere else because that doesn't really help me. Okay, so, so I don't, I don't need a ton of cabinets, whatever I can, I can store my excess my leftover stuff in the butler's pantry and, and that's like the, the functionality of the kitchen is, is so important to me like that, that's all I really care about is being able to work and so like for me, it's like maximizing counterspace and making sure that you know my work area is you know, just a step or two at the most from you know, from each other. Paul McAlary 18:05 When you maximize countertop space, you're also maximizing base cabinets, because you know, countertop, top of the base cabinets. So if you give yourself more countertop, do that you're gonna expand how much cabinetry you have. So Jennifer 18:22 yeah, I was kind of thinking about not having upper too many uppers like you know, I mean there aren't that many there now but I don't think I need more than like what's there because all I really need to do is put my dishes and cups and stuff in there. Paul McAlary 18:36 If you do end up with more than you have now. It would only be where the pantry was one extra cabinet essentially all the wall cabinets in the beginning are just going to be on the one wall. That Jennifer 18:48 right Well let me ask you let me ask you this. What if I do you know do the thing that you're saying which I absolutely love moving the refrigerator over to the other side and putting in putting a pantry there. So I eliminate the whole area where it says you know refrigerator and pantry and that's just countertop but with an expanded cooktop because I want a larger cooktop than that. So what if I had just countertop to the right of the cooktop. If you want Paul McAlary 19:11 to do that too. You can leave your pantry closet as it is which isn't a bad idea. Because now you'll if you wanted to have a mop or a broom or anything else, you'll have pantry cabinets that are going to be making your refrigerator look built in on the backside of your powder room. And then that pantry closet could be a good place for mops and brooms and things like that. That Jennifer 19:34 couldn't I wouldn't I mean I would rather just get rid of it and have that whole thing be a countertop. Paul McAlary 19:39 You can do that too. And it's made that top coming down. You could even do something like have floating shelves or nothing towards the end. Jennifer 19:47 Yeah, because that's the thing I really my main goal here is to get it functioning and for me to be something I need an expanse of countertop like that's bigger than anything I see here. So You know, because I need to be able to lay out everything while I'm cooking, you know, all of my bowls, all my ingredients, you know. Paul McAlary 20:06 So if that's the maximized countertop, then get rid of your pantry, because you're going to have the pantry closets on the backside of your powder room, slide your stove down, have a bunch of countertop and drawers and things on the right side of you hooked up. Is it going to be just the freestanding Jennifer 20:23 as well? Yeah. So I would prefer to do you know, a wall based of love. And but I think I've talked myself into just doing a range. So yeah, if you got to do with that idea. But I mean, if you can find a place to put double ovens and still give me a big countertop, then that's fine, but I don't see it. Paul McAlary 20:45 Well, your double ovens would essentially go exactly where your pantry is your pantry now, and then your refrigerator is gone. So then my cooktop is going to move down, and your cooktop can get bigger. And then you're going to have more countertop on the right and on the left of your cooktop, and then think is going to go in the oil. Jennifer 21:08 Right? Right, right, oh, if this thing goes in the oil, does it just go like centered? Like so like right next to the countertop? And if so, then what happens with the base cabinets, that's there right now, like you can't open it because the dishwasher and the sink and everything will be right there, right? Paul McAlary 21:28 Well, you're, you're gonna turn the corner. And then also part of this too, is how much you're going to recess your refrigerator into that wall. So let's say you did the 12 inches, that's going to leave you like here, I'm just marking it on the thing. And then we really can't get any closer to this, these base cabinets and countertop and everything else that's there, we got to leave you really three feet, at least Jennifer 21:55 just way more than three feet between, Paul McAlary 21:58 I'm gonna know I'm gonna mark three feet off. So if I did give you three feet, that's going to come to here. And then you're gonna be able to turn the corner of this L. But this whole plan, by the way, really isn't a great plan if you can't get rid of that wall to Jennifer 22:16 some extent. Right? Well, right? Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, Paul McAlary 22:20 can't get rid of that wall, then anybody that's maybe going to sit on the back end that a countertop is going to be facing the wall and everything else. But assuming you can, you're going to have the dishwasher, then you're going to have a sink cabinet. And it's going to be a 24 inch sink base. And then the corner here is going to be a blind base, you know what a blind basis. I don't a blind bass is a bass that sort of undesirable. It's where you have to open the door and the bass cabinet and then reach all the way back to get into the corner. So there's not really, once you're turning the corner, when we're adding your refrigerator here, you can make this whole length of cabinetry longer. If you recess your refrigerator more and more into your great room. You know, at some point, you could move your whole refrigerator into the great room not have any of the pantry cabinets I was talking about on the powder and just recessed a refrigerator into your great room with a wall and back of it, and then have the base cabinets and everything else. But you know, you'll be sacrificing and making your great room a little less, a little smaller. And Jennifer 23:31 that's fine, because that space in the great room is just completely dead space. Paul McAlary 23:35 So if you do that, and you don't really you're saying you don't really care too much about the pantry added pantry space, you'll you'll save the pantry cabinets, which are the most expensive cabinets in your kitchen. Well now your eyes, now your l can grow another whole foot. And so then one side grows another whole foot, you can really recessed your refrigerator into that space. Because right now you have that space has the overhang and seating there. Right. If you're recessed your refrigerator pretty far back into the great room, you could put like a desk area or something like that on the back of the refrigerator wall. And yeah, and then you could make your L longer and longer and longer and longer. And then as it gets longer, at some point, you're gonna have plenty of room to put a lazy susan in that corner. When you turn the corner then have then have your dishwasher and a panel on the end your dishwasher comes down to inches. Like if I'm right, looking at your measurements. So let's see. We left you two feet to here three. Yeah, I mean you at some point you're really you're probably going to be able to have a panel on the side of the dishwasher, a normal single bowl sink and maybe even get a trash can on the right side of you. And then your lazy susan on how much you want us sink your refrigerator back into the great room. Jennifer 25:04 Okay, laundry, the deeper Paul McAlary 25:07 the deeper you sink your refrigerator, the better the love that you get is. Jennifer 25:13 Yes. The better the Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then and I think that's, I think that's fine. But the question for you, so I know that. Okay, so the wall on the opposite side of the powder room. Does that just look like blank and weird that there's nothing on it? Paul McAlary 25:29 You mean the new wall you're building and back of the refrigerator? Jennifer 25:32 No, no, the wall on the opposite side of the powder room where we were saying if we build a pantry, we can be flush with the fridge that was partially set into the great room. So if we remove those pantry cabinets there What does anything go on that wall? Or is it just a blank wall? Paul McAlary 25:48 It's the same thing. It's the same thing that it is that was just a blank wall. Jennifer 25:51 Right? Right. Right. Okay. Okay. Because I mean, it kind of feels like, it kind of feels like it's just useless space. But I guess you know, there's nothing you can do about it. Because it would look weird to like put a countertop there or something, right? No, you Paul McAlary 26:04 couldn't? Yeah, we'd be sticking out. The one thing you could do to make the powder room wall look a little bit better is in the drawing, it looks like the powder room is just a room in itself. And that when you come down the hallway, that the powder room is in that there's no door or anything. It's just the hallway is just a regular hallway, right? Jennifer 26:28 How would the hallway hallway Paul McAlary 26:30 you know the hallway from the kitchen to the powder room. There's no like door there. Right? But no, no doorway, even. It's just a drywall, because the ceiling goes flush going everywhere. So this is sort of counterintuitive, but it looks much nicer if you were to make take the powder room wall and build the wall straight across to the linen closet. And then just put a doorway in that wall. Right now there'll be a doorway in the wall. And the ceiling over the doorway will be closed in. But it will make the room the whole powder room area. First of all look less lonely. And also like your powder room door is less like it's in your kitchen. Jennifer 27:19 It's actually when you're looking at it on in real life. It doesn't look like it's in the kitchen. But Paul McAlary 27:27 definitely not in the kitchen. It totally is not interesting at all. But when you have to go through a doorway to get to it. Yeah, it's like that. It's less than the kitchen. So Jennifer 27:37 yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe no, it's certainly a free flow of not having a of not having a dog, you know, like door anywhere, though I like to be able to move around. Paul McAlary 27:46 Well, it wouldn't be a door. It's a doorway. So you Oh, Jennifer 27:50 you mean like a case opening? Paul McAlary 27:51 Yeah, like a case opening. So you just make it a case opening so that you wouldn't really, it wouldn't restrict anybody or anything else. But the thing is, they get to taste opening. Now the whole back of the powder, room wall and over the doorway is all going to be flush. You know, instead of the powder room wall being so sort of lonely, it's just this three foot wall that sits by itself. Now it's connected to another thing that extends all the way down to the linen closet. And it just makes the powder room look, you know, it doesn't look like you've got this powder room stuck in the middle of the floor plan of the house. It's gonna be part of another wall. Jennifer 28:31 Okay, I see what you're saying. Paul McAlary 28:33 You know, what you do is you have a kitchen designer do it and show it to you. MIDI. And then you take a look at if you like it. Yeah, you know, there'll be no door there, you wouldn't be restricting movement or anything else. It would be making that wall sort of more like it was built in with the rest of the walls in the house. I don't know on the powder room. What from the doorway opening from the great room to the powder room. It shows it as a little tiny wall on the left. And another little tiny wall on the right on, you know, on the back and on the side of the powder room. I'm thinking that they drew that wrong. Is that a doorway going there? Or is it just a little too little nubs of walls that go up to the ceiling? Jennifer 29:20 I think it's just not possible. Because you're going into the double height room when you pass those nubs I'm pretty sure. Hold on. I'm just Paul McAlary 29:33 so I would tell you too, that that will look way better to as well is if you connected those walls and had it be a doorway instead of just the ceiling. Continue into the great room until it goes to a different height. Right. Jennifer 29:49 Let me let me look at it to make sure that I'm telling you the right thing. Yeah, yeah, it's just oh no, there's there's a there is no it's like it's good. on a case by case opening there, there's Paul McAlary 30:02 not even case that just it's got a wall going across the top. So that that looks better that way, right? Just the fact that it's a doorway, and it connects the two walls. Jennifer 30:14 Right? So that's what I'm talking about is the doorway that connects the two walls. Paul McAlary 30:17 Right? So that looks better than having enough to notice. So that's what I'm saying is if they're not showing it that way on your floor plan, but that's the, that's a nicer way to do it the way they did it. And that what I'm suggesting is doing the same thing in the past with the powder room wall to connect those. Jennifer 30:36 I'm trying to find that look to see if, if they if there is the same thing, you know what I mean? But I mean Paul McAlary 30:42 by looking on the Jennifer 30:46 mind, but yeah, since there's when I was there, Paul McAlary 30:49 there's not another since there's not there, I'm pretty sure that you'll find that there isn't a door Wait, people are lazy. So when they show the knobs, the person that was lazy was the architect that did the drawing, right? He didn't draw right as an opening, he just opts in. And then when they show it the other way, without the knobs, we know that it's pretty much they it would be less work just to not have a doorway there. So they probably went in. So Jennifer 31:18 hold on. I'm looking right now trying to find a nice found my pictures. Let me see if I can find. Yeah, it's just, it's just an opening, just an Paul McAlary 31:29 opening. So you can have it's no work for a kitchen designer. So when we're doing this on this, we just. Jennifer 31:39 But if I made that face pantry space, like we were talking about before, and that would make it flush with the wall to the left of it, then that might look nicer if I could just do all of that in one and bring the and bring the ceiling down. At the same time. Right. Paul McAlary 31:56 What do you mean, bring the ceiling down? Jennifer 32:00 Oh, to make the Paul McAlary 32:01 to make the doorway. Yeah, I mean, well, though, you know what, it's less important to do it. When you have the pantries, if you put the pantries on the wall, then you're going to have the refrigerator and then the cabinet over the refrigerator, and the panel on the side of the refrigerator all building that whole thing in. So it's really less important. The only reason I was suggesting it is because you brought it up. And you're right. The powder room wall is a little bit lonely. By itself. Yeah. So yeah, that's going to be a lonely thing. When you have the then you put the pantry, if that's what you do, Jennifer 32:36 except for if I do the pantry and I only recess the fridge into the great room, then I don't get that space. For my lazy Susan, like you were saying that's true. Paul McAlary 32:46 There's bad, there's always something bad that you get when we give you something good, right? You don't get nothing for free. And that's how it works. Jennifer 32:59 So question for you then also, how large of a refrigerator could I have? Do you think there? What what's like, Paul McAlary 33:07 you know, you want to get the biggest refrigerator that you can get? And you probably also, if you're willing to take up more of your great room, you can also make a whole depth refrigerator. Oh, yes, yeah. And make it look like it's a counter depth refrigerator by pulling the cabinet over the refrigerator out. So then you would get a 36 inch refrigerator that was full depth, and you pull your refrigerator cabinet above forward six inches, and then the panel on the side of the refrigerator would be 30 inches deep instead of 26 inches or whatever do that actually, if you did do that, and you made your pantry cabinets 12 The countertop after the refrigerator would be falling back, you know, another five, four and a half inches already, because the refrigerator was so deep, right? Okay, so that Jennifer 34:07 I'm getting that so that Paul McAlary 34:11 I can draw that. I'll draw that one in. If you did that version, that version gets you the most cabinets, it probably get you the Lazy Susan in the corner. It gets you the sink than the dishwasher in the L but your trash can cabinet is going to have to be like after the Lazy Susan, on the stove run. Jennifer 34:33 That's okay, that doesn't bother me. Or it Paul McAlary 34:34 actually could go under the countertop to over by the refrigerator. Jennifer 34:38 That does bother me. Okay, so either one of those. I don't want to have to walk across the room to get to my service. Yeah. Paul McAlary 34:48 Because if it's just one person cooking then it makes it easier for you on the stove side. And then yeah, so do you think you want to do it with a cooktop and double ovens or one thing to think about is cooktops and double ovens cost wise, costs about exactly the same as getting a professional range. So, Jennifer 35:13 yeah, I mean, I must, I'm less concerned about that. Sorry. Go ahead. What Paul McAlary 35:17 I was gonna say, however, if you're getting the professional range, it's maybe more important to vent it outside. Yeah. Well, it's not maybe it isn't important event. Jennifer 35:30 Well, I mean, it's, it's more important, no matter what I mean, it's, it's just, it's going to be horrible. If I can't vent it. I don't even know how that would work. I mean, like, do those, do those air circulator things even work? The 400, whatever. Paul McAlary 35:45 What they do is they have sure the grease and the grease gets caught in the filter. So at least you're not spreading grease all over your house, but they're not getting your to smoke. They're not getting right. And Jennifer 35:58 so like your whole house is just constantly full of smoke. It just doesn't make any sense. Paul McAlary 36:03 Well, it also too, is there's new studies that just came out that suggested all these plus breathing all the gas fumes into so all the gas, fumes and everything that byproducts, you're you're inhaling. So if you have a hood, all those stuffs are eliminated. Unknown Speaker 36:21 I've never I've never not had a hood. So I don't know what it's like to cook without a hood. I just I imagine it's horrible, though. Paul McAlary 36:28 Yeah, you know, it just it's way better. I just Unknown Speaker 36:31 where? Where would I put a microwave in the in the scenario? I didn't even think about that. Paul McAlary 36:36 Well, if you got the in the double oven scenario, or the right scenario, that's Jennifer 36:40 true. Is that okay? In the double ovens, double oven is better. Paul McAlary 36:46 Yeah, was the did the double oven, what you do, as you put the, maybe a speed oven, that would be a second oven and a microwave above your oven. And if you did the range version, and you waited a 36 inch range, then you can't put a microwave foot above it. mean, if you got a 30 inch range, you're gonna save a fortune. And then you could have a microwave hood over the top. And a microwave hood can vent outside. So your microwave hood right now doesn't, but it can vent outside and it will be 390 cfm. And it would just vent up through the cabinet up into over the tops of the cabinets down and then then outside. Depending on what event it is. Unknown Speaker 37:33 Is that the only like, do you have to have a vent? Is the microwave vent your only option? Or is there any other option that's better than having a microwave above your Paul McAlary 37:43 you could also have your double ovens. You could have a hood, and you could put your microwave underneath. If you got a range instead of the double ovens, then you could put your microwave under the countertop in a microwave drawer. That would be a good place for and you could have a hood over your range that vented outside and then you could also have a drawer that you're Unknown Speaker 38:07 what I'm asking what what I mean is if you don't have your your microwave over your range or cooktop or whatever it is right. What are your other options? If you can't vent outside? Is there some other apparatus that does the just the grease and recirculate the air that isn't under a microwave? Paul McAlary 38:26 Oh yeah, there's hoods that are self venting, too. So you could it would go through a filter, and it would go outside but it would not be any different than the microwave. Unknown Speaker 38:37 If I do so. So then I think my my preference would be to do the double oven with one of them being you know, a quick cook like you were saying and, and a microwave in the pantry area was current pantry area. And then doing a cooktop with a vent with a self ventilate self circulating vent over that. Paul McAlary 38:56 It's not a horrible thing. Adding another vent, either on your deck on the front or on your deck on the back. mean that doesn't really destroy the neighborhood. And Unknown Speaker 39:11 well yeah, but you know, I can't do anything about it. If they say no. So, yeah, I Paul McAlary 39:15 mean, you can but I you know what I would say especially with all these new studies about the gas and everything. yourself. It's like, you know what? On you guys at the on the board sort of worried that someone's going to sue you but you could drink too. Do something that we realize now causes cancer and not letting just put it in very abstruse in obtrusive, tiny vent and the side of their house. I didn't know that maybe in the board meeting, right. If you said Jennifer 39:45 that something Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I know it's Paul McAlary 39:48 a little bit more conscious of the litigious nature of the negative when you don't allow people to do the thing that's the most safe Unknown Speaker 39:59 for all No, they've already somebody else has already fought that fight. And it's already been. Yeah, I just need to I just need to find out, you know, basic. Yeah. So yeah, I can't imagine that somebody else hasn't tried this already. So and for all I know they've been successful, and it's already been done. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So. Okay, so then if I can do the reduced the 12. If I can't reduce that well, though, and I can't, you know, wrap countertop around that wall, then I just have to stop at the wall and bring my L my Peninsula out from there. Right. And in that case, it would probably be best and to completely recess the fridge into the great room and have more room just in general, right. Paul McAlary 40:48 Yeah, I would agree with that. And Unknown Speaker 40:51 artwork on that powder, room wall or something? Well, the Paul McAlary 40:55 other thing that you could do, too, is, if you can't get rid of that, do you what happens with the countertop that you might have coming out? Maybe you put a base cabinet? On the wall? In the corner? Because who's going to sit there facing a wall? Right? I don't know. So you could have Unknown Speaker 41:11 a wait, why is anyone facing a wall? Oh, you mean if they're sitting at a countertop Paul McAlary 41:16 they're sitting at like when you do your L you're gonna have them sitting right on top? I would think so. Right. Unknown Speaker 41:21 We'll see that we'll see. That's why I thought that perhaps a bank cut. It's an L shaped thing cut might work there. Because Paul McAlary 41:31 Oh, I see what you're talking about is a bank get off of the wall and the peninsula. Yes. Yeah, that does work. So if you did that, then that all works. If you did it off the peninsula. Now you get the bank kit. And banquettes saves space. Unknown Speaker 41:48 So then I can push the table toward the corner as opposed to how and then and then the pathway to the deck is a lot better. Well now that right now it's not so great. Paul McAlary 41:57 The bench of the banquette is going to be against the wall that you're right, so your table can't move. Your table is forced to be up against the banquette. So you're going to Unknown Speaker 42:08 like so it gets completely out of the way of the pathway from the great room to the deck. Paul McAlary 42:13 Yes, it does. But it gets out of the way so much that it's totally wasting space. Right, you're going to be very far away from the doorway, when you're if you're, if you can't move this thing. You know what, Unknown Speaker 42:26 yeah, I don't know. Right? The way that I have it set up right now it's a fairly small table with four chairs around it and you have to like you know, shimmy to get between the chairs and the fireplace to get to the deck. And it's like it's kind of bothering me and it bothers my husband especially Paul McAlary 42:45 a no go. Unknown Speaker 42:47 Well, right now it's just in the middle of the of that little space of the breakfast nook. So I was thinking if I if I built the banquette, and that way, I could push the table a little bit further to the right and down, then it clears a better path to get to the deck. Paul McAlary 43:02 And is the door to the deck that opens the one on the left. It's a slider. It's a slider, is that the left side that slides? Oh, Unknown Speaker 43:12 hold on. Actually, sure, that might be the reason why we're why we're frustrated. But let's see. No, it's slides from the left, the left is the one so it slides from left to right. So that's Paul McAlary 43:22 good. So if you didn't do any of this with the banquette, the way to make your breakfast area work much better would be to get a rectangular table that seats six, and then you would only have it sit five, you would take that and you would push it up against the same wall that the stove is on, so that you two with their backs to the deck to with their backs to the kitchen, one on the end. And because you're not trying to leave space on both sides, now suddenly, you gain gain 30 I see and you stay Jennifer 43:59 right there making like a peninsula out of your table, Paul McAlary 44:01 you making a peninsula out of your table. And then what you do is you move the light fixture so that it's centered over the table, the new location table and that makes it all warble and that makes your fireplace normal. Unknown Speaker 44:14 If you can't make that fireplace normal fireplace is so weird. If I could, yeah. Okay, so you don't think it would look weird to have the new Peninsula table parallel with the peninsula of the kitchen? That wouldn't be here? Yeah, I Paul McAlary 44:33 think in an ideal world, what you would have is you'd have the peninsula table along there, because they're gonna come out to let me just measure Yeah. So that it's going to end really far away from the fireplace. And so you'll have plenty of room to get past it to get to the seating. And then yeah, perfect world. What I do is I have countertop and back of the kitchen sink that you're sitting at. So now you have a stool area that you can sit at. Oh, so you would do both. I would do both. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 45:11 Oh, okay. Yeah, I like that idea. Because the alternative, Paul McAlary 45:15 if you can't move this wall, if you do build the banquette, which I like, the only problem is, you're going to be like seven feet from the, from the doorways, right? You're going to be pushed back. If I was going to do that, with the bank, can you take all that the way it is now, and you have gonna have to move one of the sprinkler heads, you're gonna have to move the sprinkler head that's facing into the breakfast nook, but maybe make them an extra a foot thick instead of six inches. Or maybe just move the wall? If you could even move that if they said no, you have to have a wall there. If you move the wall, the bank at all works much better. If you're just use more of the space. Unknown Speaker 46:00 Oh, yes. So if I have to have a wall to put the sprinklers then you're right. If I move it, if I move it back, that would have all the sprinklers in it still, but I just diminished the breakfast snack a little bit. I could have more counterspace and blah, blah, blah. And and then the bank that would make sense if that's what I chose to do. Paul McAlary 46:23 Yeah, you want to do with all of these things is we you know, I always say we're trying to de funkified people's houses. Unknown Speaker 46:31 Right, right. And then so right and then and then and then it almost makes the fireplace sort of more. Yeah, that area, like a cozy note. And it makes the fireplace make more sense. Paul McAlary 46:44 It does all those things. So I mean, I really like that, but only the one thing I don't like for me. It just freaks me out when when I see stuff that looks like what it is. That looks like oh, we had we wanted a bang cat. But look, it's it just created this big six foot dead space. Right? Funny, right? If it looks like it all belongs, it looks like you know it looks like your house was designed for the thing that you have. And that's the best thing Unknown Speaker 47:16 and then and then the other reason I think originally the reason why I originally got the banquette idea was because I thought that that would be a place where I could hide event. If I had to run event if I couldn't run event through the wall. I could run it, you know, down and then behind the banquette and out Paul McAlary 47:33 I guess Yeah, if your whole if the bank kept went the whole length, you could run it through the Unknown Speaker 47:39 whole length. Yeah, right. Right, right. Yeah. So yeah, okay, well, it's a thought Paul McAlary 47:46 what you were doing with, even with the band cat is you could have the band cat come down a length. And then when he got to the very end, you could even have a bass cabinet or something like that. Yes. You could put something on Unknown Speaker 48:02 the back. Yep, yep. Yep, that makes total sense. That makes total sense. Yeah, I like that, too. Okay. Thank you go. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, Paul McAlary 48:14 a bunch of work to do to figure out what they will let you do. Unknown Speaker 48:17 Exactly. Yes, exactly. That's always the hardest part. Hey, and also, you know, you said that there that our area was a dead zone for your, for your business. But I did find one that was pretty close. So I'm gonna call them and say, I don't I mean, like you said, you've never actually like worked with these people like you you just critique their, their Pinterest, or their house page, or their house pages? Yeah, yeah, Paul McAlary 48:49 if they're on our list, then what we did was, first we looked at their house designs, and made sure that they go any mistakes, surprisingly, 80% of the kitchen companies show mistakes, kitchen design mistakes on their house page. So they're already a top 20% In my opinion, just by not showing problems and mistakes. So then once they got past that hurdle, then we went on their website, and we looked at what cabinet brands they carried. And generally, they had to carry at least a couple of cabinet brands that we thought were good brands that eliminate some other people and then we looked at their reviews, like their Google review them their their reviews on maybe Yelp and places like that, how's everybody gets good reviews. Nobody gets bad reviews on houses, simply because you sort of invite people to review you. And you wouldn't really invite anybody that wasn't going to be happy. But anybody that wants to he can in the world can post on Google. So yeah, yes, yeah. People are unhappy. They're going to do it. So yeah. Unknown Speaker 49:59 Like it's Kane of places called builders general looks like and but but they have a location in little silver, New Jersey, which is pretty close to where we're going to be moving. So I thought maybe I could try that. Okay, then. Paul McAlary 50:16 Yeah, I would say the thing about a location like that is, because it's builders something, they're probably going to have a whole nice array of cabinet brands that they carry. So you're going to have lots of choices for good cabinets, they're also going to be low for cabinets. So you're going to have fans, that are nice brands that are well constructed, there will also be reasonable, probably your biggest challenge is going to be that some of the designers that work there are not going to be good. So right, right. You're working with them as maybe to call them up and say, Who is the most experienced designer that you have? Yeah, yeah. Because that's also what they can, they can maybe not have mistakes on their house page, is the person that's reviewing it is the guy that's the smart guy, or woman, the person is, is making sure they're not putting any bad stuff up on their house page. But then that's not the person that you could be working with, because it's a chain. Yeah. So just try to zero in on whoever the most experienced person. Unknown Speaker 51:26 Yeah. One more question about the cabinet. So I didn't ask anything about that. But in general, lately, I've been seeing a lot of like, sort of, like, you know, just like clear coded wood, or it looks like or something like that, or maybe like a light stain kind of thinking about about doing that. But you think it's a bad idea. Like to do something like that's not is that going to be resellable or because like the thing about the paint, I got like white painted the last time I did it. And I don't know, it just, you know, just didn't look so good after a while. I mean, maybe maybe the dirt would get on the wood and that would look bad too. But no matter whatever. Stained cabinets Paul McAlary 52:03 are far more durable than painted cabinets. So painted Nick and scratch very easily. But one thing that's good about this, you can have them clean, then you can have them touched up for maybe $500 in five or 10 It's polyurethane that's coating the cabinet. You know, that's what's on your floors. So that's way more durable than paint, you know, needed your floors and you were walking on your floors, you can just imagine that it's going to Nick It's scratchy. The color is inside the wood because the wood is absorbing the stain. So even if you hit the cabinet, you know, unless you took a whole chip out of the wood. You're right, if you dented the cabinet, it would still be the same color. Painted cabinets lasts for whatever period of time without really right for a light wood you could get like I'm very lazy. So our kitchen is a light maple color. And that's because maybe the hardest wood so it's the most dramatic wall in my kitchen is going to last the longest without doing anything. And a light color Maple is somewhat timeless. I mean it's not as popular as painted cabinets right now by any stretch of the imagination. 70% of sales are painted cabinets. Yeah. What if Unknown Speaker 53:23 that's what worries me about going with the wood but I just I liked the look of the wood so much better now. It's just it's so pretty. Paul McAlary 53:34 Yeah, get a light cut. The only problem the light colors, it will propel you into a more expensive cabinet brand most likely Jennifer 53:42 because of the cabinet because of wood Paul McAlary 53:44 because the wood is higher. Yeah, so what is usually a higher end fab you would want brands we carry is coming out with a new light colored door style. I haven't seen it in person yet only pictures in pictures that looks nice. These inexpensive cabinet brands that do the painted cabinets so well. They're doing it on March. And birch doesn't stain, very the birch that they're using. Were they using popular, which is great for ID cabinets, but it doesn't stain that well. So they have very difficult for them to come up with. It stains gray very well. So there's a lot of great stains that they do. But if you wanted to like color woodstain Most of these inexpensive brands don't do that. But Unknown Speaker 54:33 okay, so what does what's a good? You gotta Paul McAlary 54:38 you gotta go up one rung in the cabinet world. So okay, the cabinets that are all American brands, like from us, we carry cube attack and Fabula wood. There are two brands that are American companies, but they're importing their doors and fronts and then building the cabinets in the United States. And they're, you know, they're companies that are very real In the bowl, but they only successfully do gray stains and paints. Jennifer 55:04 I don't want gray Paul McAlary 55:06 Fabula wood is coming with this new door, which I haven't seen in person maybe finally succeeded, we'll find out. But then get past that you got to spend about 20% more to get to a brand like, for us, we carry Timberlake. Timberlake is in thing that a Lowe's or Home Depot would carry under at Lowe's it would be Shenandoah at Home Depot. It's called American Woodmark. I think it's also they rebranded under and wanted Ross to I think at Home Depot, they actually have two brands that are the same cabinet that really Yes, but that's Well, Jennifer 55:49 that's a better brand, you're saying a higher end. Paul McAlary 55:53 It's a more expensive brand, but it's not better made. Unknown Speaker 55:56 It's to find the wood that I'm like, Yeah, Paul McAlary 56:00 you have to get to that level to find the wood. So you haven't gotten better made cabinet the cabinets made about the same, the surface the finish on the surface, if you were to get a painted cabinet, it would be a mistake, because the Fabula would actually has a nicer finish on their painted cabinets. But if you want to want it, you have to go up 20% to get to a brand that's going to have any of the colors that you're going to like. And if you go up a little bit more than 20% and you go to 30% more, then all of a sudden you're gonna have a whole lot of different colors and a lot of different woods and there'll be able to do light stains. The only thing is, is if you wanted a quarter sawn oak, bleached kind of look there have it like a white oak, quarter sawn oak finish is a very popular finish, that kind of wood in that kind of finish is only going to be available in custom cabinets. So that's going to suddenly be not 20% or 30% More now that's going to be 60 70% more. Okay, actually more than that, it's going to be 70 or 60 or 70% more for the cabinet brand. But then that kind of wood is an extra 10 or 15% too. So what's going to practice right, Unknown Speaker 57:12 right, right, right, right, double double the price. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, is like yeah, since this is a townhouse and I don't know I just don't feel like it's smart to put too much money into it but you know, whatever I'm doing doing painted but you know, I I would prefer to have to have the wood but you know if I can't get what I if I can't get something that looks really nice, you know? Because I mean like the last cabinets I would have I bought them Omega cannon. Yeah. Yeah, that's okay. And I just like there'd been a painted white you know, shaker style, and it just ended up looking like plastic. And you know, I just want something that looks like real wood and I don't quite know what I'm what I know it when I see it like, but I need to find it. And Paul McAlary 57:59 you shouldn't get a thermofoil cabinet it was definitely a painted would not Unknown Speaker 58:03 afford it was definitely definitely a painted what. I just can't explain it. There was something about those cabinets that just didn't look right. And I have ever been haunted. That was my last kitchen. I did that one maybe 10 years or yeah, maybe like well, eight years ago and now we're moving to the Paul McAlary 58:23 Omega sales two kinds of cabinets. They sell, framed and frameless. So, if you got frameless Oh, pretty Unknown Speaker 58:32 sure it was non pretty sure it was framed. It was omega dynasty. Paul McAlary 58:37 dynasty. Actually, if it was a mega dynasty comes both ways to it's framed. I don't know. Maybe it's just the color that they have. Unknown Speaker 58:45 Well, it was it would have had to have been framed because it was inside. Oh, if Paul McAlary 58:49 it's inset Yes, it has to be framed. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so maybe, Unknown Speaker 58:54 maybe it was like the Yeah, and then maybe it was like, I think maybe the maybe the edges were a little beveled like, you know, instead of just being you know, like crisp and straight. And I don't know something about I Paul McAlary 59:07 mean to have the paint if the paint is a little tiny, then it will look more fair. Unknown Speaker 59:12 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Could have been that too. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's probably what it was. But anyway, I mean, it didn't ruin it. But I mean, I just I would like to. Just like simple, simple and real is what I want some simple Paul McAlary 59:27 thing is is a lot of this stuff. Like if you didn't like the paint and it was too shiny, you might have had to get it in a different sheen. But then the designer discuss it with you or whatever. And you just pick this out and then you don't realize is one of our designers hates and that's got any kind of sheen to it. He likes them very dull. And he doesn't match any of the colors that any of the hit the grip he really, you know is only happy if customers are getting cabinets that have We're seeing paints, but right yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:00:03 yeah. Well, maybe that's what I'm reacting to. It's hard to say. But anyway, so, yeah. All right. Well, that's, that's great. Paul McAlary 1:00:13 So I'll send you just a hand drawing. It'll be very rough. But you can take it to another designer and they can take it off. And then, you know, if a few weeks from now or a month from now, or two months from now, if you get the whole thing laid out and you want to run, take another run at it and tweak it again or something, feel free to call back in. Unknown Speaker 1:00:34 Okay, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You're the greatest. Paul McAlary 1:00:38 Thanks for calling in. Jennifer 1:00:39 Bye. All right. Bye. Bye. Mark Mitten 1:00:41 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with the world's greatest Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainland kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai