Mark Mitten 0:03 Your new kitchen afflicted with problems created by an architect. You'd better call Paul. Paul McAlary 0:16 Fahad, can you hear me? Fahad 0:17 Yeah, I can hear you. Fine. Can you hear me? Okay, Paul McAlary 0:19 I hear you fine. Sounds great. Welcome to calls with Paul, I have your design up in front of me. And is in an addition that's so part of the house is being added onto? Oh, no. Okay. Fahad 0:32 Yeah, it's already there, we just kind of redoing the kitchen we kind of went from we want to do the countertops, to we want to do the cabinet doors to let us redo the whole thing. Paul McAlary 0:42 Generally, the only two philosophies that really make sense is to do as little as possible to make yourself happy with what you have, or to do the whole thing from scratch, only because once you start doing the doors and the countertops, and if you're getting any new appliances, you're spending a huge proportion, possibly a half, at least of what you would have spent, if you did it from scratch, and you don't get any benefits you're you're locked into with the old design, that usually can be dramatically improved on. And then you still have the old cabinets, even if you have new doors on them. And you've spent half of what you would have spent to get a new kitchen and possibly get very little credit for it, at least when you go to sell your house. So probably a good idea to redo the whole thing. That being said, when I look at your design, there's a bunch of things that come up immediately, as problems that architects create. First off my one of my pet peeves, I think you said you listen to one of my podcasts or whatever Muth me complaining about architects it's a, it's a architects and kitchen designers complain about each other, probably a lot. So for us, what we complain about is that architects first of all, don't know what constitutes good kitchen design. So they're creating designs, a lot of times that aren't very functional, or could be a lot better. But also, they try to make it seem like they can do more than they really can. Part of that is the number of stools that you have in this design are ridiculously unrealistic. Each person sits at this island of yours. If you allow each person two feet of space, then their elbows will be touching each other. And if they try to eat that way, they'll be interfering with each other. Hopefully, they're both the same, both left handed are both right handed. But certainly if you try to put more than two seats, that's just not even physically possible, the third seat would be two feet away. So I mean, the three seats on the end, your countertop looks like it's about four feet long, maybe four feet three inches long, even even under the most hopeful conditions, you're only going to fit two people on the end. And you can just see that the whole thing is that sort of the same case, with the other three seats on each side. So this island theoretically would sit six, and never sit. So that's the first thing before we even address other issues, just that that's really not realistic, I don't have measurements. So it makes it a little hard to to know. But if I'm, I'm just kind of take your picture. So figure out around how long your island is. So if this is four feet, so if or centimeters is four feet, then your island is about 11 feet long. So the next thing that's unrealistic in this picture I would tell you is it will, it's unlikely you'll find a piece of granite or quartz, that's 11 feet long. So most colors that you're going to find most things that you're going to pick from unless you want to splurge on a very limited amount of oversize slabs. Most the longest, most slabs are 10 feet long. So 10 feet is the longest island that you theoretically could get. So those are just the two unrealistic things that come up. And then there's one more big one, which is how high are your ceilings? Speaker 3 4:22 You know, I should have measured them before I got on this call, but I don't know off the top of my head. He did the measurement. Paul McAlary 4:29 I'm gonna I'm gonna guess that your ceilings are eight feet high from the designs. And so that's the other thing that's completely unrealistic is you can't put 10 pounds of sausage in a 10 pound wrapper that you know the the poor contractor that's going to be installing your kitchen. He needs to level all the cabinets. And so how old is your house? Your house looks relatively new is it well, what's when was it Fahad 4:56 1993 Paul McAlary 4:58 So it's relatively new but even a house was built in 1993, it's very unlikely that your ceilings are going to be that are going to be perfectly level. So what the architect has done in this design is he has gotten you to get custom size cabinets, because cabinets come in different increments. If you were to do this design he has, it looks like to me like he's got your cabinets with maybe ending about three inches away from the ceiling. So you'd be getting 39 inch high wall cabinets, and unusual high custom cabinets. And then you'd have three inches of crown molding to reach the ceiling. But that all anticipates the fact that both of your floors and your ceilings are perfectly level. And that's not realistic either. So we need to have a little bit of play, so that when they install your cabinets, you have a couple of long cabinet runs even in this design that I don't like which we'll get into in a second. But even in in any design that you're going to do, you're probably going to have some long cabinet runs. And if you only left enough room for a three inch molding, when the contractor put the cabinets in perfectly level, you'd find out that you'd have three inches in one place. And then all the way down at the other end, you might have two and a half inches or two and some other amount of inches. And so if you put the molding on top, it would look terrible. Because you're I would immediately be drawn to the fact that the molding was touching the ceiling in one place, and either not fitting in the other. Or if they lowered the whole cabinets down, it would be touching at its lowest point. And then at its highest point, you'd have a half inch or some kind of gap, that would look ridiculous. So we always have to have a two piece crown molding. So what's going to happen is your ceilings are eight feet high, you're going to get 36 inch high wall cabinets instead of 39 inch high wall cabinets. And then in most cabinet brands that will save you $5,000 in cabinets. So you'll save $5,000 in cabinetry, because you won't have to be getting a custom size. And then you'll have two moldings on top of the cabinet's, which will be much more attractive, one flat piece, and then a larger crown and this really small ground that will ride up and down on the flat piece. Speaker 3 7:19 Well, I did talk to him about this yesterday. And partly it's my we kept saying, Hey, can you raise the cabinets, we like space and he said, Look, the standard from the counter to the cabinet is 18 I've got yours at 22 It's already really high. So I kind of email like you're right, I measured my current ones, it's only 18 we can bring it down. And then looking at different pictures. I mean, I've seen where they've got cabinets, and it hits the ceiling with the molding or you know, you've just got the cabinet like our current house, the cabinet ends, there's a space and then there's a ceiling is that kind of just personal taste, because I don't mind having a space Paul McAlary 7:54 that you're not no one likes that anymore. So that's so dated style wise, that yeah, you know, you want to go well and it's not going to cost you any money to go up to the ceiling. And then also, you want to leave 18 inches between your countertops and your cabinets first so that they're more accessible to you. So that you can, you know, reach the wall cabinets more easily. But then also then your cabinet when you get 36 inch cabinets, then your cabinets will be able to have a two piece crown molding to have it reached the ceiling. It won't be so hard finding all the sizes of everything that you're going to need. When customers reinvent the wheel. It's so complicated kitchen design, that there's 100 problems that you're going to encounter when you try to switch to 21 inches high. And the reality is even if you're tall, you don't really need extra space. You just need all the proper amount. I mean, I know what there's a relatively famous designer in Philadelphia, who's now retired her design studio was right next to Villanova University, where the Philadelphia 70 Sixers had their training facility. And so a lot of the Philadelphia 70 Sixers basketball players all lived right around Villanova where her design studio was so she would get all the basketball players and you know half of them would be six feet eight, seven feet tall everything else and they all wanted to because they're very tall a lot of times they wanted to make their base cabinets higher or make their walk cabinets higher off the floor and everything else but appliances all come in certain sizes. And then you when you try to do that make your base cabinets higher and now your stove is sunk down your dishwasher has a space all kinds of strange things start happening when you raise them up the same kind of things happens and what she would tell the basketball players is it's not gonna work and you're gonna get traded anyway and then your house you won't be able to sell your house and and that usually convinced them not to do it. So I would tell ya, don't just keep things standard sizes not only we save a ton of money because Everything's just standard size, but everything will work a lot better, too. So sure, yeah. So that's my, that's my complaints about realism. But now if we get to down to the well, I guess I have one more complaint about realism, which is that one of the definitions of a successful kitchen design generally is, if it looks like every, if it looks like your home was designed for this kitchen, it will be attractive, and people will like it. If it looks like what the design is, is, here's the space that I had. And here's how I jammed a lot of the things that I liked and a whole bunch of cabinetry into it. That's a sort of a design failure. And everybody that walks into the room will appreciate that. And so I would say that your little banquette falls under that category. As things stand now, it's again unrealistic, I don't have the dimensions. But yeah, the one wall that you have coming down on when you're facing the banquette on the left side. So that will, you can measure and you can sort of figure out if it works, but the seat on the back wall is gonna have to be at least 18 inches deep. And then that person's legs will be sticking out. And then the next person that sits over has to be far enough away from that other person. And far enough down, that they can sit on that wall to the right, when you're facing the island, the wall that's to the right of the island. If you're looking at it, that's the walls a little bit shorter than it is on the other side. And so yeah, I don't know, if when you put the table in place, that person is going to have enough wall to really sit or you could close up the big huge opening that you have there. I don't know you're opening that opening up, or is it already exist that way now? Speaker 3 12:00 No, that doesn't exist that way. Now. Yeah, I don't know if it's clear in the in the photos from the from the real to listing. But right now there's like much ways there with with with a big pillar right in the middle of that opening. So part of the this modeling is putting a beam up and getting rid of these, these columns and these archways so we do have some stability, I guess, when when it comes to that wall, Paul McAlary 12:25 yeah. So if you wanted to do the bank hit, you would just have to make that opening shorter, and leave yourself more wall around the same amount of wall that you have on the other side. But then the other thing is, the whole house was designed for a table in the bay. And when you put this funny banquette in there, you create this whole big area of space that you're not using in any way. Unless you're dancing or doing something other in your kitchen other than eating. I would just say that everybody likes a bank cat, they saw pictures of a bank cat that they thought they really liked. The bank had that they saw pictures of probably was in a home where the bank had really worked in your home. Yeah, you have an area that's already been sort of predetermined as a good place to have the table. Have those sliding doors existing now? Are they French doors? The architect probably wants them to be French doors, Speaker 3 13:20 they learn? Well, no, no. They already offense. Paul McAlary 13:24 They already are French doors. So and then opening in as normal French doors do. Yeah. But yeah. So I would say you move your table to in front of the window, you make them not French doors, because the last architect that you worked with, made them or whoever built the house, put French doors, their French doors hurt your home, in that they eat up space. And you can't have them open and have a screen that's there very easily. And then they're sticking out when they're opened in their in your way. If they became French looking sliders instead, then your table could go in your bay, you'd make facing the doors, you'd make the left door, the side that would be sliding. And you could have divided light like a French door does. But then you'd slide the door over. You can have it open and have air coming in through a screen and then your door and your table and everything else wouldn't be interfering with each other and you wouldn't have these doors when they're open jutting out into the room and blocking possibly people's ability to sit down and to utilize the space for the bump out. Speaker 3 14:39 So yeah, I like that. Yeah, Paul McAlary 14:43 that's all of my reality. Criticism. Now just as far as good kitchen design goes. One of the ways we rate how well a kitchen is designed, is what if we shaded your countertops according to how much they got you used, what would those countertops look like. And so if we said White was never used, and red was used all the time, a really well designed kitchen will have pink countertops, there'll be a reason why you're at all the different places where there's countertop in your kitchen. And we'll make people spaced out, it will make your kitchen functional, and a really poorly designed kitchen, we'll have a bright red spot where all the 90% of the work happens. And then all the rest of the countertops will be a very light pink, well, you have one of those kitchens, you have a huge bright red spot between the sink and the stove, where you've got about three feet of countertop, where most of the time if you're cooking, or you're cleaning, whatever you're doing, you're using three feet of countertop, and then this gigantic island that you have an all the countertop you have to the right of the stove is just going to be used a lot less frequently. And for a number of reasons. One, that the countertop, that's all the way on the end, when the refrigerator door opens, that hits anybody that standing there. And if you'd go to the stove, and you go to the right and you cut and chop on the right of this stove, that will be good. But anytime that you want to get water or rinse something off, you'll be running back to the left side of the stove. So you'll probably settle doing your work if you're cooking, cutting and chopping at the left. So you can scrape stuff off into the sink or whatever we work sort of between our sink and our stove. So that's what we what we want to do is get your your sink your stove in your refrigerator as far apart as possible. So having them to the sink and the stove. So close together is a bad thing. The other thing with the island is, if you're going to go back to putting your table not have your bank at, then you'll have a bigger table, I don't know that it's so important that you sit on every side of the island. And that makes your island a little bit more functional, because everybody won't get the face each other. But then you won't have people sending into the area where you might have a lot of traffic flow, which is in between the cabinets that you have the 12 inch deep sort of strange drawers on the bottom and gigantic doors that are on top on that other section. So I would think that that other section would be a much better place for your refrigerator. But not if you're going to be sitting into it, maybe it might want to give up. I don't I don't have the dimension. So I don't, you won't have to really if you're going to have an area that you're going to sit into a refrigerator, you really need to leave at least 45 inches from the face of the refrigerator doors to the island. So I'm not sure if you have that. But I would move my refrigerator down to that area and put pantries maybe on either side of the refrigerator. So it makes that whole area deeper and built in. And then I would move my stove to the wall where your your refrigerator currently is. So that I got my refrigerator, my sink and my stove far away from each other. Speaker 3 18:17 Oh, wow. Okay, very interesting. Paul McAlary 18:22 And you can really move the refrigerator any way you want. You could put the refrigerator all the way to the left, once you move it over. And then you could have big pantries to the right of it. That would give you more storage and then the refrigerator wouldn't be so far away. It would be you know, relatively close, it would only jump over that doorway. What does that go to your garage or a mud room. So yeah, with jump, just jump across to the other side. Or some people would put maybe one pantry cabinet there and then the refrigerator but if you have the refrigerator, you certainly want to have the whole refrigerator encased in cabinetry. You want the depth of the cabinetry, you don't want your cabinets jutting out, you don't want your refrigerator jutting out from your cabinetry. You want to make those cabinets 24 inches deep, and you want a panel if you're gonna move the refrigerator all the way to the left there, you want a panel on the side of the refrigerator, building the refrigerator in and then we'll be another thing that will be good is that will allow you right now in this design. There's no place to have a light switch as you're entering that hallway. So you'll also be able to have countertop on the other side of your stove and be able to have a light switch or whatever if you wanted to go down that hallway that you could turn on or turn off or have it a two way switch or whatever. But to have tall cabinets going all the way to the end on each side of the hallway. Just it's going to make it a little bit feel a little bit claustrophobic and you also won't have a place for even a light switch where As when your stove moves to where your refrigerator wall where your refrigerator is, now, you'll it will be more open on the end. So when you're coming down the hallway, if you wanted to put something down, as you entered the room, you'll have countertop to the right of your church or the right side of your stove that you could put something down on, and it will be more open when you come through. Speaker 3 20:23 Okay, so then the stove wouldn't be exactly where the fridge is. But basically, on that side of Paul McAlary 20:28 the center, it's sort of you want the doors on either side of the stove to sort of be symmetrical. So we'll have you have to figure out you need them dimensions to do this, but you figure out exactly how much space you have. And like the way the architects got it. Again, he's having the cabinets come all the way down, like flush with the wall. Well, even your wall won't be perfectly level. And so you want that you want to have what's called a reveal. You want your cabinets and your countertops to end about an inch from the end of the wall, just so that countertops die into the wall, the cabinet isn't flush with the wall. But everything has a little bit of a space. So you don't see how things how you don't see if anything is crooked. So what you'd have is you'd have your stove, and then one cabinet on the right, maybe 18 inches wide, with an 18 inch countertop on the right side of the stove. So that handles of your pots and pans could all turn out over the countertop on the right side and they wouldn't be jutting out into space would be, which would be incredibly dangerous. And then you'd have countertop there, then you'd have your stove, then you'd have whatever countertop was left on your left. And then you'd also have this really long countertop now that you could be working at in between your sink and your stove. Speaker 3 21:49 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have one question about if we moved to where those large cabinets are. I mean those cabinets shallower right now. And then that wall, you know, if you look at the door, and where the wall is, I'm just wondering if that fridge is gonna stick out too much because it behind those cabinets is a utility room, whether the washer dryer and all of that stuff, Paul McAlary 22:12 it looks like in the picture that the wall is even the fact that the wall is even is you have your the only problem your refrigerator is still jutting out as close to your island as it's going to be when I move your generator, the only difference if you're sitting there, you might not have as much room. And then when you get to the end, they have the old fashioned wall that's on the end there jutting out, you could keep that and then the if you wanted to, personally I would just eliminate that little wing of a wall. And you know, have my pantry cabinets go all the way back. But if you want to save money, if that will exist that way now, then you have the pantry cabinets come all the way down to that wall. And then you have to put a filler in there or slide things down. So the pantry is up against it. And then the pantry juts out, you know another eight inches past the end of that wall. And then the molding on top of the pantry will come around the the pantry cabinets and dye into the end of that wall. That's to the right. And it will look good. Unknown Speaker 23:21 Yes, yeah, I think that wouldn't look good. Paul McAlary 23:25 You have to just decide if you can live without the chairs that would be on the refrigerator side. But without the dimensions Exactly. It's hard for me to know if it would still work with the chairs there or not. Also, the other thing too is if it didn't, you could also make your island a little narrower, although your island probably looks better, wider. So if you made your island a little bit narrower then you wouldn't sit to on the end of the island, you would have suddenly only sit one. But you know you have to wrestle with that and you really need the the exact we need the exact dimensions to sort of figure out if that works. Speaker 3 24:08 Yeah, no. I think either way, it would be okay if we couldn't sit there we probably could live with this is really cold. This is really good Paul McAlary 24:17 information. Yeah. And then the other thing is you have to get to somebody you have to get to a kitchen designer too. Because there's so much information that we have that anybody that doesn't design kitchen for a living doesn't have even in this design. They've got drawers coming out of the corners so that the whole corner of the room there is dead, so you're not utilizing that corner space. And then if you put handles on the knobs on the drawers, it doesn't even look like there's enough spacers enough fillers so that when you pull the drawers out, they're going to hit the handles and the knobs on the other drawers. So you don't you know we design the kitchen designers have learned instantly when they first started their job, not to have everything hit, things hit each other. So we're trying to do things symmetrically, we're trying to do lots of stuff. But we also know how the the cabinets that we're selling actually function. And so you know, you want, you want to have them help you, like even the little drawers that you have between the dishwasher, and the stove. There looks like there may be 12 inches wide. So a kitchen designer, that's any good would never sell a drawer cabinet that was 12 inches, because the inside of the drawer would only be seven inches wide. I don't know what you're gonna do with these three narrow, tiny drawers on the side of the stove, that probably should be a cabinet. That's where cookie sheets and trays that has one door that opens in that particular case. Speaker 3 25:50 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. Yeah, that's kind of, we'd already spotted that and kind of had the idea. I mean, I don't want to, you know, the architects kind of working with us. And we're, we're treating it as a layout, not so much. This is actually what we're going to do. Now, obviously, I'm seeing that even that, you know, we need to make some adjustments, because even though you Paul McAlary 26:13 need to make major adjustments, and then there's in all kinds of the most important information that you don't get from when you're working with somebody that's not a kitchen designer, is the person who has no idea what stuff costs, so that they're, you know, besides the fact that you're not going to be able to put your molding up, besides the fact that you're not going to fit these number of chairs, besides the fact that the whole design is unrealistic, and has other problems. The biggest problem is it the design itself has catapulted you into cabinetry that might be unnecessarily $10,000 More expensive than it needs to be. And so the kitchen designer, and you don't have the pricing yet. So you're like make having discussions and making decisions. And nobody said to you, this kitchen is going to cost x. So like, I can look at your kitchen, where are you located? Unknown Speaker 27:06 I'm in Dallas. Paul McAlary 27:07 Okay, so you're in Dallas, I have no idea what the pricing is in Dallas. But if I had to guess I'd say it's probably maybe a tiny bit more expensive than Philadelphia. Let's say we don't know. But I can look at your kitchen. And I can say, if you did the cabinetry the way it's done here, not only doesn't it work, but in order to do this, you'd have fought 35 to $40,000 minimum of cabinetry, versus when you switch to 36 inch high cabinets with two piece crown moldings. When you redo this design, you could still be you know, if you got custom cabinets and very expensive cabinets, the kitchen would be far more attractive. But it might be a similar amount of money in cabinets. Or now because you're at standard sizes, you could get cabinets that were just as well made. And they might be more like in the mid 20s or high 20s. So maybe you're going to save at least $10,000 in cabinetry, depending on the door styles and the finishes that you like. But this looks like it's designed in like a white Shaker door style. That kind of door style was the most popular door style in the world, every kitchen, every brand is going to have it. So you could be in a relatively inexpensive, well made brand, and probably be able to get everything that you need. Okay. And then the other thing, you'll find out that things like the cabinet that you have with all the drawers underneath, those don't exist, right, you can't get a cabinet door that's three feet wide, nobody will sell that. And the reason is it would work instantly. So no cabinet brand, even the most expensive custom cabinet brands would ever warranty that cabinet. So even though they're custom cabinets, and they'll do anything you want, they won't do crazy. You just can't order things that don't make any sense. And some of the stuff here just sort of, you know, falls under that category too, as a kitchen designer, that kitchen designers will know instantly that they can't even order that or get that thing made. Speaker 3 29:15 Yeah, well, I mean, I was planning I actually have already contacted because I saw your list of other other kitchen designers in the country, you know that you recommend based on what you've done in house. So there's one in Dallas that you'd recommend it to have already contacted. I haven't managed to speak to them. Paul McAlary 29:31 Yeah. So, you know, that's us trying to help you out. I mean, I don't know those places, personally or anything, but we've looked at their brands that they carry. And then so we see that they carry brands that we think are pretty good. And then we've looked at their designs that they showcase on house.com which is like the platform that most kitchen design people list. Most of their kitchens like our website I think has 10 different kitchens have in our gallery or something like that, but our house paid as 110. So you can look at most kitchen places, and they'll you'll see all their work or a lot of their work on their house page. And most companies, when you look at their house page have all kinds of mistakes all over the place. So when we looked at that company in Dallas, they didn't showcase any mistakes, which eliminates 80% Of all the companies that are on house, you know, are showcasing mistakes. So you're in the top 20% of the kitchen places doing that. And then we know that they have cabinets that range from inexpensive brands to expensive brands, which is a good thing. Some places only want to cater to rich people. And so they only sell very expensive cabinetry. But a lot of times, those designers aren't even as good. Because they only work with one brand, they learn less, and they don't know how to be versatile, and they don't know how to save you money, because they're only working with one cabinet brand instead of a bunch of brands. And then lastly, we just checked and made sure that whatever cabinet company we're recommending, doesn't have a whole lot of bad reviews on Google or Yelp or anything like that, that they're they have a reputation. So at any rate, that's how we rated them. So hopefully you can let us know or shoot us an email or something. If you have a good experience. Speaker 3 31:26 Oh, no, yeah, I really appreciate that you've made yourself available like this, you know, this is, I think for most people doing this, it might be a first time you've done it or the second time and you don't really know as a consumer what you're doing. So without this kind of advice, it would be so much more difficult. Is there anything else in this that stands out to you? Or do you think we covered the main, Paul McAlary 31:47 the main house, what's the outside of your house made out of brick and siding? That side with a kitchen sink is is it brick or siding there? Fahad 31:59 That's brick. Paul McAlary 32:01 So if it had been siding, it would have been really nice and really easy to make the window where the sink is like a double window instead of a single window. So that you especially since the stove is moving down, it could have been a much more attractive window area where you were working at looking out the window. But I think with brick, it's a big pain in the neck. And it's hard to make it come out right in the end. Speaker 3 32:29 Yeah, I mean, the window is actually in some sort of casement. But I don't know if that casement is wide enough to expand to to a double window, because actually that the window that's there right now, if you look in the solos, it's a tiny window. At least Paul McAlary 32:44 I was trying to find this. Oh, this is the real estate photos right here. Let's see, Speaker 3 32:49 I think if you go to photo, six of the 36, you can see how the kitchen currently looks and the window is really small. Paul McAlary 32:58 Yeah, but I'm looking I'm trying to see the outside of the house. There's no photo of the house. It looks like right? Speaker 3 33:04 Yeah, no, there isn't. Yeah, that's the sign. Yeah, Paul McAlary 33:08 this is your next door neighbor, I guess. It's a big pain in the neck, redo the brick on the back of the house. So I don't know, if you want to move, you know, move the window. mean, you'd have to cut out, you have to put a steel lentil in like a little beam, then you'd have to either refinish the brick, or have some kind of what's called Brick molding covering the cut in the brick that you had to do. So it's starting to get you know, if you had stucco house or a sighted house, changing the size of the window would be so easy. It would just be almost automatic. Yeah, other than that, I think, go talk to the kitchen people. And then you can come back another day. And then we can take a look at what they've done. It will probably or things will have changed a lot. And you'll you'll build operating at a dip from a different perspective. And we can tweak that thing and make it a little bit better. Speaker 3 34:02 Okay, yeah, that sounds really good. Thank you. Yeah, sure. That's Paul McAlary 34:05 what we do. So let me move on to my next caller FOD. And then maybe we'll talk to you again sometime. All right, fine. Hey, good talking to you. All right. Bye. Bye. Mark Mitten 34:17 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality, custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai