Mark Mitten 0:02 You don't have an architect forcing your fortune because he doesn't know anything about cabinetry. Your designer isn't lazy, incompetent or even amateurish. Well, it'll probably still be better as we call Paul. Paul McAlary 0:16 IPJ. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, wonderful. Welcome to calls with Paul, I have all your drawings that you sent in. Right? It's relatively straightforward. I mean, you have some options of different ways you could place things and different things that you could do. In your email, you said that you were happier with the American Woodmark cabinets that you found, were at least the designer that you worked with at Home Depot with American Woodmark, we actually sell American wood mark. They're called Timberlake, for private dealers, American American Woodmark is manufactured in Home Depot, it's called American Woodmark. In a private dealer, it's called Timberlake, if you're at Lowe's, it's called Shenandoah. And it's really the same brand just rebranded under different names. And I would tell you that unless you're getting their their least expensive offering, which has very limited sizing, and some other things, if you're getting their regular Shaker door style and white, it will be probably 20% more expensive, or 20 and 20, at least 20% More expensive than fab you would. And it won't be as nice a finish. P.J. 2:34 Okay, that makes sense. A lot of it was really the designers that we dealt with, most of the dealers we found seemed kind of focused on the flipper market or rentals. There, there just wasn't a lot of, let's say, horsepower there. It was just kind of cookie cutter, hey, here's your layout. And that was it. Yeah, I mean, it all has to do with the experience that you're gonna get. And also, when you're getting a smaller kitchen, and you're looking at less expensive cabinet lines, depends on the place that you're walking into. And the fact that it's a little bit of a smaller kitchen, they want to get you in and out and make big money off of your fast not really work on your design to any extent. And then at Home Depot, they're not getting paid commission doesn't matter to the designers, what the customers are getting, so that that can be a good thing sometimes. Yeah. Paul McAlary 3:24 Although, as a designer, I can tell you that. Really, if you do, if you do your job, right, you make about the same amount of money off inexpensive kitchens as you do about it with expensive kitchens. Because the really expensive kitchens require many, many more hours of work. So you end up if you figure out what you're making per hour, you make about the same amount of money off an inexpensive kitchen as you do an expensive kitchen. The only way you don't is when you don't do a good job. And then the people don't get the inexpensive kitchen from you. Because you weren't giving them your best efforts. You know? So yeah, which is more or less the situation we kind of felt we were in. Yeah, so I mean that that makes sense. It's sort of very short sighted a lot of people in all industries, not just the kitchen, cabinet industry, but in all industries. A lot of people have a difficult time really making a good analysis of how to invest their time. And what's good ideas and bad ideas. So yeah, but yeah, looking at your design you'd have you know, you asked about your refrigerator and getting the French door refrigerator. One thing is you have in the the hand drawing you sent me that on the on the sink side, that there's a doorway there on the sink side, on the left hand end. So by your eating area. You have a doorway there that the floor plan that you sent me doesn't have I guess. Yeah, it's probably just not shown. P.J. 4:55 Well, actually, that was a doorframe before the extension. So there's no there's no actual door there. There's just a wide door frame that looks like there was some extension put on the house previously. Oh, you mean the beam? You're talking about the beam that goes across the eating area? Yeah. And it's carried down on the vertical on the wall also. Paul McAlary 1:35 Okay, so you'll be able to see the seams between the all the panels on the door, there's a component typically P.J. 1:43 opened up over time, or on the Fabula to that kind of stay. Paul McAlary 1:49 And all brands, they can open up a little bit over time. But Timberlake also has one door that they do in MDF, that won't open at all. But that's still kind of really bad idea, because that's going to get damaged very easily. So I would discourage people from getting an MDF door. If you're getting a solid wood door, then just for white shaker, the reason we really carry Timberlake is that they offer all kinds of other woods like Maple Woods and light colors, and cherry woods, and green cabinets. There's lots of reasons it's a good brand. I mean, that's why we carry it. But if you're getting plain white Shaker Doors to fab, your wood cabinets are less expensive, and the finishes nicer. Oh, it's carried down on the vertical of the wall. Just because it's a supporting something. Yeah. And how far does it stick out? Unknown Speaker 5:25 It's about three quarters of an inch out. Paul McAlary 5:28 Oh, just a little tiny bump out there. We do a good job of, of hiding the post? That's back there. Yeah. So as far as your design goes, having the countertop come so far down on the sink side, is really preventing you like that little table? What does that really sits to there? Right. And even if you try to put a third in there, it's getting really tight. Because it looks like the cabinets are so close to you. Is that true? Or Unknown Speaker 6:05 is it pretty good space? I mean, you could probably fit four people comfortably. But it is Wait, it feels like it's wasted space, to be honest, that extra run of cabinets. Paul McAlary 6:18 So I'm just looking at it. So yeah, I mean, if you have the space, the first thing I would do is I would make my table longer. So that you could sit for people to at each side, okay, in my my kitchen area. Because if you've got to have an E in an area, and it doesn't sit for, it's not really doing it's not really functioning University, well, I mean, it's sort of a waste, if you're only going to sit to there, it's almost better getting rid of the eating area, and then maybe putting, you know more cabinetry around there. If you're gonna sit there sometimes, then you might as well at least have the table be bigger and sit for and then you just want to end your countertop to the left of your sink. So that you can sit the four people there. So probably a table that would sit for comfortably might be 54 inches long. And if you put it against the wall, like you have now that might preclude you from being able to get past the countertop at at that's where the sink is without shortening that countertop a little bit. But yeah, I mean, I just think what you don't want to do is you by increasing the countertop underneath the sink, and bringing it so close to the eating area, you might be making it a place that only sits two people, or maybe three tightly. Whereas it's much better, I think if it's it's four. And then the other things that you can do with your design is there's no compelling reason why your refrigerator has to be there, you were wondering about getting a friend store and not mean the French door is going to hit the wall. But you could also move the refrigerator to the other side of the room so that it was to the right of your sink. If you did that, if the measurements that you gave me are right, you'd still have room to have the refrigerator, the refrigerator could be pulled out so that the one French door opened into this space. You could even trim down the the wall there like an inch if you didn't want to even worry about it. But usually past boxes of the refrigerators depends on how big a refrigerator box that you get. But you really should have a counter depth refrigerator for a galley kitchen like this. So if you're getting a counter depth refrigerator, you don't really have to pull it out very far that was only 26 inches wide. And then you would have the 18 inch cabinet to the right of your sink. And that would be a double trash can pull out. And then your you'd have your 30 inch sink cabinet. And all of that would work moving your sink there, you'd only have 18 inches of countertop space to the right of your sink. But that's really okay, you have to put your dish rack on one side of your sink, it would be there and when someone opened your french door refrigerator, they would cover your dish rack, but that's not really a crisis. It's not really a countertop that's really being used on a regular basis. And then you'd have all the countertop to your left. And now around your range. You can have more cabinetry pots and pans drawers, things like that. And you know, maybe even make it a little more attractive by centering the range on that that whole long wall. That's just another way to do it. There's not really a wrong way or right way. These options are I think, usually when you're working or cooking or you know preparing food a lot of the times anything that's going to be hot, you're going to like having more countertop On either side of your stove, because if you're cooking on your stove and the handles of your pots are turning out, so that you're, they're not going back over the flames of your stove, they're eating up a few inches, which doesn't leave you very much countertop to be able to work at without hitting the the handles of the pots and pans. So, you know, just getting rid of your refrigerator and on the one side and moving it down, moving it across and giving you more countertop there, that would give you a whole big countertop space that you could comfortably work at. P.J. 10:33 Yeah, I think that's a really good option. And it's not like I don't have water lines or anything run to it. Not going to take much majority and outlet right above you can see where the coffeemaker is. Paul McAlary 10:44 Yeah. And I mean, the other thing too, is that if you can find somebody that will sell you the fab you wood cabinets, you're going to save 20% So I look at your kitchen, your kitchen looks like, I don't know, if I sold this in timber Lake. Maybe it's doesn't have any pantries. So maybe in timber Lake, what was the cost of the cabinets that you got something like $12,000 or $11,000? Something like that? Unknown Speaker 11:10 Or just material with all the trends and everything was 6072? Actually on Paul McAlary 11:18 that. Only $7,200? Yeah. And that wasn't that wasn't that was an American Woodmark. Yep. So then you're getting then your American Woodmark that you're getting, I can tell from the price? Is there fast ship, you it was going to come faster than normal. So this was going to come in a matter of three or four weeks. Right. Unknown Speaker 11:42 Okay. So didn't get the time. But that sounds about right. Paul McAlary 11:46 So yeah, so the regular cabinetry is more like 12 weeks. So if you're that's an that would make sense. I mean, that's not bad. When you get those American Woodmark cabinets, they're actually made by waypoint. And it's like their quick ship program. And you have a limited amount of door styles and sizes. And they only common a couple of colors. So it's a very limited offering. But it's still very well made. And it's all plywood construction. It is a good selection. And then it's almost the same price as value. And it's not very different. So the real question would just be, if you should look at the doors and see the seams that are on the doors, you can compare it to fab you would, but there's not going to be much of a price difference anymore. Unknown Speaker 12:30 Yeah, I found it was just slightly more expensive. Because that was including everything tax delivery. And when I had a few prices on fabulous, and it might have been 5% cheaper, but I can't say with 100% Certainty included all the trim panel, pretty close. Paul McAlary 12:51 There's something to be said too, about shopping at home center, especially in the middle of a pandemic. The one thing with the home center is it doesn't really matter which home center you're at, in the end, if anything goes wrong, you know, you will get satisfaction. Whereas if you're dealing with private dealers, then you have to research their reputations to make sure that they have a good reputation. You know that, you know, sometimes a private dealer could be struggling financially, and you wouldn't even know it or anything and they could go out of business. They could have problems they could, you know, generally, your private dealers will have better designers working for them. But your kitchen isn't really a sophisticated design. It's very simple. The real question I would just think is whether or not the seam that you're going to see in American Woodmark that you really won't see in fact you would. Over time both lines are going to have the seams open up possibly a little bit on some of the cabinets, but they are totally touchable we give you are supposed to give you a crayon pencil of wax that matches your cabinets, so that if you do have a seam open up, you can fill it with a colored wax that matches your cabinets. When it shouldn't be all your cabinets just they they're real wood. So they're going to expand and contract with heat and humidity. And sometimes it's enough to crack the paint line between the two different pieces of wood. Okay. Other than that, I mean really, you have the couple of different options design wise, I definitely think you want your tray a double trash can pull out on one side of your sink and your dishwasher on the other when you're shortening up the wall cabinets if you're going to do that to give yourself a little bit more room in the kitchen eating area. The other thing that's going to be true too is I don't know if you care about resale value. But if you're shortening up that cabinet so you can fit for people at your kitchen table. There will be other people People that you could sell your house to, that seating for, or being able to get a fifth person in there, if they really have to, that would be plenty of dining area for some people. And they would use your dining room area, not as a dining room, but as like an office area or something like that. So yeah, Unknown Speaker 15:20 and I wish I had a measurement of that exact eating area, unfortunately, I don't think I do. But what you eat or where the two person? Paul McAlary 15:33 Well, it's drawn to scale. So we know that if the thing is drawing to scale, and it's usually always drawing to scale, that we know how big this how wide the stove is, or how deep the countertops are. So we can just add it up. I mean, I'm just looking real quickly. So that's about two feet is this far. So that's two feet, four feet, looks like it's very close to six feet that bumping. So all right, so if it's six feet, and you put a 54 inch table in there, you just would have to shorten the one side of the countertop, where the kitchen is, you know, a feet not not a whole lot, you know, no more than a foot certainly. And then it will be very comfortably sit very comfortably sit for five. And then once it's comfortably sitting four or five, now you don't have a now there's not really a compelling reason to need a dining room and a living room. And now you can have a living room, and sort of a desk area or work area, or pull a little play area for a child or something like that. Some people use it one way, some people will use it the other way. But you know, once you have a little tiny eating area that really can't expand, then you have to have the dining area. So you know, you don't really have a choice. Okay, Unknown Speaker 16:59 yeah, I'm definitely for that. And so, definitely going to move the fridge, I think that's the best option. I'd even think about that wall depth being more achievable with a French door fridge, who. Paul McAlary 17:13 And if you don't even touch the wall, you just have to pull the French door refrigerator out to 26. Sometimes what people would do is, wow, the wall is 26 inches deep, and you have a two piece molding. So the other thing is that your crown molding, if it's going to be a two piece crown molding that's reaching the ceiling, usually that crown molding comes out, like depends on how you do the molding. Let me just look at your picture here. So they did it sort of flat. So if you do it flat, then if you depends on the molding you got but a lot of moldings. Oh, no, it's good. The doorway there. They don't show it in the picture. But the doorway there actually has a header across the top of it. Yeah, so then the molding is always going to have plenty of space to return. So you have no worry about the molding, returning to the wall, there. And then yeah, your refrigerator door, your refrigerator box. If you pull it out to the 26 inches, then you could even get a panel on the refrigerator that's a little bit deeper, and then pull your refrigerator out to 26 inches, and then the doors will be opening right into the opening. Unknown Speaker 18:29 Okay, do you have to put a filler between the wall and the fridge? Well, let's have the door panel or the panel on the left side of the fridge, Paul McAlary 18:39 I think what you might want to do is put like a three quarter inch panel or a three quarter inch filler on the right side of their fridge. And you'll have enough room for a three quarter inch panel on the left side of the fridge. And then what's good about that is now your baseboard that you have that goes around that doorway, will be able to return into the filler that you put there. Otherwise, you'd have sort of a funny place where the molding would sort of have to end inside the inside of the doorway because it couldn't or it would it couldn't go back along the wall because the refrigerator would be pressed up against the wall. So yeah, so that's a really good that's a really good point. You're probably better off using a three quarter inch feller and then having the refrigerator cabinets come all the way out like the pictures did. And then a three quarter inch panel on the left side of the refrigerator. And if you made the panel's 26 inches deep, they are the panel 26 inches deep. Then the refrigerator would sort of be even with the wall on the one side and even with the filler on the one side and then your countertop, which is going to be 25 and a half inches deep would die into the side of the panel next to the refrigerator. So If you got a regular counter depth refrigerator, otherwise the countertop would be sticking out a little bit past the panels that you put in, what you do is you buy a 30 inch deep panel, and the contractor cuts it down. 26. P.J. 20:13 Okay, yeah, that's a good idea. Paul McAlary 20:16 Yeah. And then if you're, you don't have to move your stove, you can keep your stove where it is, if that's easier, or tweak it and move it down a little bit, if you can with the gas line. But if you just want to play it safe, and you don't want to move anything, you could just put all your extra countertop on your left hand side, and then you'll just have this really big countertop area. And then the good thing too, is that countertop area, that's a better place over there for putting, do you have a microwave hood over the top of your stove? That would also yes, so your microwave, let me just look at the design that they did. P.J. 20:51 I'm trying to avoid, that was one of the questions, I really would like to avoid a microwave hood. It just seems like it's claustrophobic in there. So getting a regular hood, might open field, make the space feel more open? Well, because there's such a lack of counter space, you know, I hate the idea of losing some to a microwave, well, you're gonna get, Paul McAlary 21:12 you're going to you could put the microwave under the countertop, but that's going to be a microwave drawer or it should be and then that's going to be an $1,100 microwave. But the one thing that's good that the Home Depot designer, put the microwave at the right height that we normally do the microwave in the kitchen that you sent me pictures of that microwaves at the old fashioned height, so that that microwave is three inches lower than the one I mean, just look at it again. Yeah, it's three inches lower than the one that the Home Depot designer did. So the one that the Home Depot designer did, he put a 12 inch cabinet over the top of the microwave instead of a 15 inch cabinet. And then the microwave moves up three inches. And it makes a big difference. Because if you're trying to use the back burners, that's a real problem, when the microwave is three inches lower, when it's just three inches higher, it actually isn't such a big deal using the back burners. And getting it off getting it off your countertop, I think is good. Because now that you're going to have the countertop on your your other side, that might be a good place to put a toaster oven, or your or your coffeemaker, or anything at all your coffeemaker maybe is actually a good place is now all the way down at the other side of the sink, just so that it's close to the table at the kitchen table. But you know, where you want to put stuff, you'll have a lot of countertop over by the oven that you can put some appliances next on. Unknown Speaker 22:42 Yeah, so you you suggest sticking with an over the range microwave, though. Paul McAlary 22:47 You know, in small kitchens, it's funny, but the the all of those microwaves, if you look at the model number, or the the model name, at least they used to, they almost all had the same name. And the name was like GE Profile Spacemaker x 4672. There are a Kitchenaid microwave, over the counter, over the counter microwave hood. Spacemaker model 674 Do the word Spacemaker is constantly in the name of these microwaves, because it's saving you a ton of space. Because now you don't have to have you're not losing a bass cabinet. That's going to cost you $1,200 For a microwave instead of three or $400. And then when you get the hood, the hood won't come down as far but the hood sticks out another eight inches. The good thing about the microwave hood is that it's it's not jutting out as far so at least your front burners, nothing is in your way. When you get a regular hood that you would put over this, you would now have to find a home for your microwave. And that hood would be sticking out almost to 24 inches out. So okay, your microwave isn't venting outside, right? P.J. 24:06 No, there is a vent. You can see the round grill. Oh, one of the far away pictures. Nothing's ever been plumbed to it. I mean, it's an old school then. Paul McAlary 24:19 You could well it's probably got the fan right there too. P.J. 24:23 It does. Yeah. Yeah, I Paul McAlary 24:25 mean, it can be done, but it's going to be a big it's gonna be a lot of work could be a be a bit a bit, a little bit of a pain in the neck. But it whether you got a hood or a microwave hood, they can all be vented out. They can be vented outside and you'd have to redo ductwork and redo that fan to get it to work, but actually the fan that's in the ceiling there, you wouldn't need any more because the microwave and the hood is going to have a fan of its own. So you just have to rip that fan out and extend the duck down to the microwave or down to your hood and then the Would vent outside, you know, using the power of the fan that's in the microwave, where the fans in the hood Unknown Speaker 25:08 work didn't ask the contractor when they were there, but we should be able to just cut the ceiling open once the cabinets are down and take care of that, Paul McAlary 25:16 I would imagine, because you only have to go, you only have to get over the center of the microwave, because the duct is gonna go straight down the middle of that cabinet that's over the microwave or over the hood, whichever you choose. And so the duct just comes straight down, it gets hooked up to the microwave, you just have to connect that new duct to the old duct after they open up the ceiling and get rid of the fan. And then just connect the two pipes to each reconnect the new pipes to each other. And then just drywall over the old hole. And you're all set. And they might be making, I don't know if you're going to do it. But a lot of people when they're doing their kitchen, they'll be making a lot of holes in the ceiling anyway, because you might be putting recessed lights on your ceiling or something like that. I mean, I think if you put recessed lights in your ceiling, that would be a lot nicer than the like old fashioned light fixture that you have on the ceiling now. Unknown Speaker 26:10 Yeah, I hadn't thought about doing anything more than the cabinets and backsplash and floor. But as I get into this, it seems like I should just get it all done Paul McAlary 26:20 a lot of this construction stuff. Because really, if you're getting the if you're getting the recessed lighting, you know, that usually cost I don't know, a couple of $100 of recessed light when you pay for the light and you pay for running it and everything else. But the lights that they're going to give you now are going to be low voltage LED lights. And so you never have to change a light bulb as long as you live. If you turn those lights on and leave them on, they last for 30 years. So you never nobody's nobody's ever changing a light bulb in their kitchen usually. So it makes your life a little bit easier. And your ceiling is a little bit low. So it also gets this light fixture that's coming a little bit feels like it's coming a little closer to close to you, because your ceiling is a little bit low. So there's a lot of it, you know, there's a lot of advantages to it. The other thing I might do too, is also when we move your refrigerator, you're not going to have a wall cabinet on either side of your window, you're going to have a panel on one side of the window. So I would just get rid of the valance and the molding that's over the top. Unknown Speaker 27:24 So that Oh yeah, definitely gone. When that Paul McAlary 27:27 makes everything a lot Unknown Speaker 27:28 more open. On that side, that's a 36 inch wide base and then an 18. So there's still 18 inches next to the thing with the fridge all the way in the corner. Paul McAlary 27:42 Yeah, when you put the fridge in the corner from the measurements that you gave me, you shouldn't be able to have a three quarter inch, then three quarter inch filler, then the refrigerator which will be 36 I would assume then the a path three quarter inch panel, then an 18 inch double trash can pull out and then with a 30 inch sink base, you still should end up being centered on the window with a 30 inch sink base doing that. And then I would also say in the picture that he's got a double bowl sink, I think you just want one large sink. Okay, I mean, sometimes people think they want double bowl sinks, but you're not going to fit a double bowl sink in the 30 inch wide cabinet you really need a 36 inch wide cabinet for that. But even double bowl sinks are leftover from the 70s. Having one big sink is so much better. Because if you have two sinks, one bowl is either tiny, and then the other bowl is a normal size, or each bowl is neither bowl is normal size, they're both one is very, very small, and the other is a little bit smaller. But then every you don't fit pots and pans and stuff like that in your sink. And then once you make your sink bigger if you have a 30 inch wide cabinet, you can actually fit a 28 inch or 27 inch wide bowl. So a 27 inch wide bowl would have a three quarter inch flange on each side. So we'll take up 28 and a half inches total. Or you can actually fit a 28 inch bowl if you can find when they make them. But either one of those bowls, the interior of the ball is going to be at least 27 inches. And that means that 24 inches in depth is how deep usually cookie sheets and trays are. So that means nothing sticks out at the top of your sink. So if you have dirty pans or turkey pans or cookie sheets or trays or anything, they're not all sticking out of the top of your sink, they're all going to fit in the bottom of your sink. If you haven't gotten around to washing them. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 29:50 Okay, yeah, that was the other question. So I guess back to the wall cabinet. So you wouldn't have any wall cabinets on the right of the sink once we put the fridge over there. Paul McAlary 30:00 So you'll have room for a P.J. 30:03 3648 up to the edge of the window Paul McAlary 30:08 48 up to the edge of the window. So that's only going to leave you with a small cabinet a really small crummy looking cabinet. So if you ended up putting a 12 inch, we just look at your numbers again 48 and a quarter, so 36, and then we're going to lose three quarters of an inch and another three quarters of an inch. Well, that's a disadvantage to this design. Okay, so, but I might do it anyway. And then if you left your that's gonna leave you like 11 inches from the window on the one side, if you did that, you'd have to leave the same 11 inches on the other side of the window. So open it up to make it but that would open it up a lot. But you'd lose essentially two feet of cabinetry. So I don't know. And then if we give you the 12 inch cabinet there. It looks like when you were measuring to you were measuring off the tile. And it looks like he got a little more space than the 28 and a quarter inches. That the 48 and a quarter inches. It looks like you might actually be able to fit a 12 inch cabinet. On the right hand side. Did you have a refrigerator tight? You want said you wanted a French door? But it was going to be? That's? Yeah. P.J. 31:32 Preferably? Paul McAlary 31:33 How many people in your family too? Well, there is 133 inch counter depth refrigerator that's made. So I don't know. But you know, it's it's it's probably more expensive. Yeah. But if you got a 36 inch counter depth refrigerator, and you put a 12 inch cabinet on the side, I think that's I think you have enough room for that. It's very close, though, maybe. I mean, it's so close, because you were probably measuring from not from the wall, but from the tile that's on the wall. Unknown Speaker 32:12 Yeah, but I mean, like you said, it'll be close, you're splitting hairs. Paul McAlary 32:17 I mean, in the nine inch cabinet, if you put a nine inch cabinet on the right hand side, that's a very narrow cabinet. And it really looks a lot better. If the cabinets on both sides of the window are the same size. There's another choice too, for location. And I think I like that the least, I think you always want to try to get your refrigerator into the corner. So if you tried to put your refrigerator down at the other end of the sink, then the problem with that is just that it's going to jump out into the room and make the room seem a lot smaller. Yeah, there's good things and bad things about both of these different possibilities in the way that we were just talking about, you ended up with a more functional kitchen, but in the other way and the way that it is now or the way that the other designer designed it, you definitely end up with a better looking kitchen. Only because you don't have that skinny door. You know, the other thing is that these refrigerators that are counter depth refrigerators like right now you have a full depth refrigerator, right? Unknown Speaker 33:29 Yeah. It's a top, I guess top and bottom. Paul McAlary 33:34 So it's like a 30 bottom frigerator Yeah, I mean, if you did that again, and you switch sides, well then suddenly, you know, once you get to a 15 inch wide cabinet on the right side of the window, then that's very, that's a normal size. So that's really what you have now on either side of the window is 15. But the only way you're gonna get 15 with the window is the top cabinet that you have there is a 33 inch wall cabinet or something like that on the right of that window. So you'd have to get like a 33 inch refrigerator on the right side of your window to fit a 15 inch on the left side. Okay. And then if you did that then then you'd have a 15 inch on the other side of the window and then maybe a 30 inch on the other side of that sink. Right now you got a 36 there I think so that you just be shortening your countertop on the sink side by like six inches. Or maybe it's even a 42 that you have there now but you'd be shortening your cabinets if money is no object. i That's probably what I would do. You have to decide you have to pick your poison. So if you got a 33 inch let's let me look it up for you. Just curious 33 and Unknown Speaker 34:56 direction I've been leaning is sticking with a top and bottom. It seemed like the French door fridges just were causing more problems for me. Paul McAlary 35:04 Interesting. All right, well, this is even better. There's a Frigidaire refrigerator I'm looking at, but they make a 31 and a half inch French door, counter depth refrigerator. So that's 31. and a half, Frigidaire makes it, it's $1,799. So it's a little bit more expensive. Now you have the panel, the other panel, a 15 inch cabinet to the right of the sink, then you still half an inch worth of wall before you get to the window. On the other side of the sink, you have a 15 inch cabinet. And then all now everything works well. Everything is really attractive, the countertop works much better. And now your only problem is you have a refrigerator that has a capacity of 17.6 cubic feet. But, you know, to be honest, 17.6 cubic feet for two people is really plenty. Unknown Speaker 36:05 Yeah, I would agree. It's only a two bedroom house. So it's not like it's ever going to need to hold enough food for a family of Paul McAlary 36:14 six. Yes, 17 cubic feet is probably around the amount of refrigerator space that you have. Now, you can even check. If you open your present refrigerator door and you look at the model number, they'll tell you, they'll have like a number next to it like it will either say 17 cubic feet, where the model number itself will have the number, it will say GE Profile GE Model number 17, q 447, or 16. The first number is usually the cubic feet of the refrigerator. And also it usually says the amount of cubic feet underneath. But 17.6 would be a normal like 33 inch wide refrigerator at a standard height, you might have a 30 inch refrigerator now would be a common width for a lot of refrigerators. Unknown Speaker 37:05 No, that's a great option, because I'm really sold on moving the fridge on the other side. But think, yeah, make cooking and Paul McAlary 37:12 working in your kitchen a lot better, and the countertop better. So this is a way that you can get it and not have to give up the looks that you would use if you got the full 36 inch wide one. Yeah, you know, I don't know if you've ever listened to any of our helpline podcast calls. But usually people, if this is all comforting, usually people call up. And the designs that they have are horrible. And you know, our don't work, set their houses on fire, fracture their skull, do whatever. So all of these things we're talking about are tweaks. And there's not necessarily a right or a wrong answer. You just have to be the one picking them. But they're all fine designs. So you just have to decide what the things are. But for me, I just think in today's day and age, I definitely want to make my kitchen table area totally usable, because so many people will that seating, four or five people in the kitchen will be totally satisfactory to them. And then they have a two bedroom condo, they might have a baby. And then the baby would have a play area. And they have the option. So sometimes they some people will turn the kitchen, the dining room area into a dining room, some people will turn the dining room area into a desk area, some people will turn the dining room area into a play area, but it's up to them. But you'd have no choice you had has to be a dining room area when you make the countertop long enough. And you make the table area so small that you only can fit two or three people. Unknown Speaker 38:50 Yeah, it definitely hasn't been a functional space, that eating area has always been kind of an afterthought never really used it much because it was so tight. Paul McAlary 39:00 Yeah, and it's even the table that you got in that space. You've got a long table and you're sitting in the picture, at least that I have. It's a long table with someone sitting at each end. Really what we want is a narrow table coming out off the wall, a good distance, so that people when they pull their chairs out have plenty of room to get in and out. They're not squashed up against the wall. So you get like a very narrow table that's like 36 inches wide. And then you get a table that's like 54 inches long, and suddenly you're comfortably sitting people can open the chairs and they're not hitting the wall and back of them. They're comfortably sitting for people and five people. Unknown Speaker 39:44 Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so pretty much answered at all unless there was just you know, any other suggestions like we mentioned the sink with you think 30 is enough. I was considering going up to a 33 but that might throw off lay out a little bit. Paul McAlary 40:03 Well, now that you're getting the small, if you're getting the smaller refrigerator, you now have room for a 33. And if you were to get a 33 and sink base, then that would fit the largest sink you could find. So there are really no larger sinks, single bowl sinks that will fit and work. And the one thing you have to also be aware of is that the sink companies, they play it safer than they have to. So they'll tell some, like Kohler has a 31 inch bowl, that's actually like 32 and a half inches with the lip. And they tell people that you need a 36 inch sink base for that. The reality is, is you don't, you can fit it in the 33 inch sink base. And there's actually a good thing about that is when you put it in a 33 inch sink base, the lip of the sink actually rests on top of the cabinet. So you never have to worry about the sink separating from the countertop. That Oh, that's important. Okay, so, which is you know, a lot of people, you get really big sink and you fill it with water, and then you put a pot in it and you fill that with water. And suddenly the clamps that are holding it in the sink in place separate. And now you got your sink dropped a little bit and you got a problem and you got some gunk in between the sink. But if you get to 33 and sink base, there is no sink, you can find pretty much that won't fit in. So a 31 inch Kohler would fit in it under mount Kohler, and then there'll be a lot of 29 inch ones and other sizes as well. P.J. 41:39 All right, that's great. And just the last question, were just drawer placement, you know, obviously, the only drawers that are shown here are to the right of the sink, if that becomes a trash pull out, you know, there, there's no full drawer. That's all cabinet drawer combos. I mean, is that something you would change? Paul McAlary 41:58 Oh, well, when you get rid of your refrigerator and move your refrigerator, the 18 inch three drawer cabinet, which is funny, that's the only cabinet that I would never sell. Because the time well, because it's not very useful because it's only 18 inches wide. So those dig deep drawers, they can't fit pots or pans or anything else. And they're deep. So you put stuff in them, and then you know, you've got to be rooting through them to get the stuff that's on the bottom. So that's why you make that a top drawer. And then a double trash can pull out underneath. So now you got trash and recycling right on one side of your sink, you got the dishwasher on the other, then I probably put just a regular base cabinet to the left of the dishwasher. But on the stove side, now you're gonna have a whole lot more room because you got rid of the refrigerator. So you have one cabinet that's to the left of the stove. You want to make that a big drawer base for pots and pans. So that's where all your pots and pans will go. It will be like a 36 or 33 inch, maybe pots and pans cabinet. And then whatever's left over after that. P.J. 43:07 Okay, yeah, right now it's to the left of the stove is a 21 inch cabinet drawer base. And then the fridge is in a 36 inch opening to the cabinet. It's 33. And there's a three inch pillar. Paul McAlary 43:24 So yes, you'll have 57 now under the new plan. So then if you had 57 or something like that, and you got to 30 probably actually, American Woodmark is not going to have a 33 They'll have a 30 inch wide one. So minus 30. And that will leave you with a 30 inch draw base for pots and pans and a 27. Or you could do with 36 next to your stove. And then after that you'll have a 2021 inch cabinet. Okay. And then if you were doing a 21 inch cabinet, you know, some people might make that for a four drawer base, because a four drawer base is something that can be useful because you have only one deep drawer at the bottom that maybe we put bread in or something like that. But then the other ones are thin. So you have cutlery in top and but one thing you should be aware of is every time you make something drawers, or you put rollouts in it, it's costing you almost $200 per drawer and more. Yeah, so drawers are expensive. Yeah, definitely. But for the pots and pans drawers, it's worth it. Unknown Speaker 44:35 Okay, so at a minimum, go with a 30 or 36 drawer base to the left of the stove. Paul McAlary 44:42 And that will be where all your pots and pans go. And then maybe on top of it, you'll put all your spatulas and stuff like that or whatever else on top. Unknown Speaker 44:53 Okay, yeah, that's it. That's a great idea. This is really helpful. Paul McAlary 44:57 So all right, so good talking to you and if You ever have more questions on at the time, feel free to call. P.J. 45:03 All right. Appreciate it. Thanks again. Paul McAlary 45:07 All right, good talking to you. Take care. Bye bye. Mark Mitten 45:10 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with the world's greatest Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainland kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai