Mark Mitten  0:02  
Are you trying to choose between two kitchen designers and the Cabinet brands they represent well then you better call

Paul McAlary  0:16  
it no are you there? Can you hear me?

Tina  0:18  
Yes. Yes. Thank you.

Paul McAlary  0:20  
Wonderful Welcome to calls with Paul. So was Dutch made cabinets was the first cabinet brand that you asked about is that right?

Tina  0:30  
Yes, I'm right now considering I understand crystal has more than one line and their upper line and I really also like some things about the Dutch made line I'm I'm a lot interested in finish. I want a painted finish on part of it and wood on part of the kitchen. And I don't know how to I haven't read anything. There's not very good reviews to learn about Dutch made.

Paul McAlary  1:06  
So I'm looking at Dutch made now handcrafted door choices. Yeah, I'm looking at them. I've never heard of them off the top of my head. Okay, their website when we go to their website doesn't have a ton of information here. I can see that they make inset cabinets as well as frameless cabinets. So they make both kinds of cabinets, custom colors, wire brush texture. So it seems like you know they're a higher end more expensive brand. That must be a pretty small company, if I haven't heard of it, how well they do their job. There's I really can't tell since I haven't I haven't heard of them. And they don't give any information on their website about you know how they construct their cabinets or really anything else. But it looks like it's a more expensive brand. And usually when you're in those more expensive brands, they'll make a cabinet almost as well as you want it you just have to make sure that you're ordering the right thing. Once something is custom or high in semi custom if you don't ask for it, you'll get all particleboard cabinets. So you have to ask what you want.

Tina  2:21  
Yeah, I'm not my my builder does a lot of built ins himself. And and they're very, very good. But I don't want that in my kitchen and maybe a couple of other high service areas. But I'm I have presently a variety of cabinets in my home I have now I have Dura Supreme and I have Rambo I didn't see is Rambo on your comparison list. J Rambo?

Paul McAlary  2:54  
No, but I've certainly heard of J Rambo. I don't think we have J Rambo, let me see

them, but I don't we don't write them or rate them. Companies don't get rated isn't that we haven't heard of them. It's that none of the designers that work for that work for me or myself have ever seen one of their cabinets and their websites give us no information. So I could look at Rambo and see. But that is the reason why they're not listed.

Tina  3:23  
Well, both of these lines come very highly recommended. I like both of the they're both the places that I'm interviewing are certified kitchen designers and I liked the two places I've narrowed it down to I like I think that because I know I want an offish white finish. And even though my husband and I are not useful anymore and are easy on things, we have grandkids and other people here and I think that my tipping point on either one of these lines is finished. And I don't know how to learn more about. Yeah, I don't think other than calling them directly.

Paul McAlary  4:02  
Yeah, I don't think that there's we haven't really noticed any difference on painted finishes. Almost all the companies that are doing things painted finishes are doing a number of only a couple of different ways. And as long as they're real companies as long as they're Yeah, so like your contractor that does cabinets on his own, he probably doesn't have the technology or the painting ability to really use conversion varnishes or any kind of heat competed conversion varnish. So the surfaces that a contractor belt builds himself or will never be as durable as the paint finishes on a real custom cabinet brand where they're made under different conditions. So that's why you know, some things lend themselves to getting cabinets from custom cabinet brands certainly kitchens do because Everybody's everybody's time tested. And the finishes are all time tested and approved, and are durable for all of these different cabinet brands, I don't think you're going to find any difference from one to another in the longevity of the finish the least expensive cabinet brands, surprisingly, will have the nicest finishes until you get up to the higher end semi custom cabinet brands. And the reason for that is some of the least expensive cabinet brands, the finishes are being done overseas. And their finished process is a labor intensive. So it's really not get to a higher and the cabinet line. But one that still below the level you're looking at, I think. But it's not until you get to the you know, to a KraftMaid or a fieldstone or star Mark or something like that, that you get back to the same quality in finish looks wise on a painted finish, however, on a stain to finish how nice the stain is directly proportional to the cabinet line, it seems. So as you get more expensive, the finishes get nicer and nicer until when you get up to the most expensive custom cabinets. The stained finishes won't even look like kitchen cabinets anymore. They'll look like fine furniture. So but yeah, so durability wise, I don't think that you have anything to worry about with any of these brands.

Tina  6:25  
Okay, all right. I just don't know how to choose between the two. And I thought that if I had learned a little bit about that process, then it might help I don't know how to kind of pick but no, I can't I guess

Paul McAlary  6:39  
most of these companies are using Sherman Williams makes the for a painted finish. Sherman Williams makes the two part conversion varnish that 95% of these custom cabinet brands are going to be using. So they're actually the same paint. So there's a couple, there's a couple of companies that might be using a spray on powder that that is melted in the ovens. And even that had some people tout that as being better, we haven't really noticed a difference in durability. So once you get lines, I don't think that for the painted surface, which is the least durable, the stain surface is going to be very much more dry.

Tina  7:27  
No, I know but it's a long dark winter up here and I need a little like and, and I'm a traditional girl so you know, I'm gonna blend I'm gonna have I'm gonna I have a wall that's going to have my coffee bar and some things on it and the island will be wood but my owl and my you I guess it is kind of is is gonna be it's gonna be an off whitish color. And so Sherwin Williams, I had a I had a Benjamin Moore color before, but maybe the color has been a Benjamin.

Paul McAlary  8:04  
And even the color that's it's confusing for people. It's Sherman Williams happens to do it. But it's not the same page that in the same colors that they have for house paint. So it's a totally different kind of paint. So I got it you have, if you will, though, people will pick a bench people will pick like a Sherman Williams color, or Benjamin Moore color, whatever this color might be. I mean, white dove is a very popular Benjamin Moore color. So yeah, we'll then have the cabinet company color match that color. And then the cabin, the company color matches it. But the color match process is done by Sherman Williams. And it doesn't even matter their color matching their own colors. And then they they make a color. And then the people go to paint the moldings or other things in the kitchen. Yeah, they don't, what you have to actually do is take the piece of wood from your cabinet that was color matched for a different process. And you can bring that to Benjamin Moore or Sherman Williams, and they'll color match.

Tina  9:07  
But that is that is very good at that.

Paul McAlary  9:09  
But yeah, you can't go to that what happens we've had customers that we've told this to it goes in one ear right at the other, they run to the store, they get a gown of the same name paint, and it's a terrible match. Because the color matching process for kitchen cabinet paint is very less exact than the color matching process for the paint that they're scanning and making paint for you. So always go paint. Let

Tina  9:36  
me let me that's that's really a very good advice. Let me just ask a little bit more about that. Is this latex paint? It's not oil based, is it? No.

Paul McAlary  9:50  
Yeah, it would be nice, but it's not allowed to be anymore. So it doesn't even matter if it comes from overseas. The federal government and crack down on everybody like 2018 2019. And everybody's pretty much. And that's one of the reasons why everybody's using the same products. Because you don't have to do all that if somebody else has done all the testing for you, you don't have to do this testing and everything else. And your your finishes certified. After 2019, the federal government is regulating cabinet companies to the level that California used to California had called carb to compliance, and the federal government made their own thing up. But essentially, it's exactly the same as almost exactly the same as the car to compliance that California had been regulating for a long time.

Tina  10:43  
Okay, so then along the same lines, let's say that I want to choose my color, and I get a door sample or whatever. And it's like, okay, yes, that's the color I want my cabinets to be. I don't order. Remember, they're not made, you know, yet, it will still be that color. And I can still choose trims based on that sample, because it will be consistent. Even if I order two months later, it will still match that color. Well, here's

Paul McAlary  11:13  
the issue, when you get a custom color from a cabinet company, that's a good this is a good reason not to get a custom color is just that if the cabinet company has their standard colors, and you like that color are enough that it's not that you don't like it that much less than a custom color, it's better to get branded color, because 10 years from now, if your kitchen gets damaged in any way, they'll always save that formula and always have that color. Most custom cabinet companies, if you pick a custom color from them, they'll duplicate it, they'll have it matched by sermon, Williams, they'll make a sample woodblock for you, you'll have to sign the back of that woodblock and send it to the cabinet company, or the designer will have to send it to Dutch maid or Christo or whoever, just when they send your order in. And then that cabinet company usually holds on to your color mat sample for a year or two. But after two years, they throw them all away, usually. And then if you need to have your color matched again, you have to go through the whole process all over. And it usually costs depending on the cab company, anywhere from a couple of hours to $300. Right color match.

Tina  12:30  
Well, that's another that's a that's another good point, as I'm comparing these two to see if there's one standard color and with one that I really like a lot more than the other, I guess that could sway. And so then if I'm looking at crystals, hire and who else would I want to compare those to if if that rep designer was in my area,

Paul McAlary  12:56  
people always put brand above person, and how good the kitchen designer is so dependent upon not only how good your kitchen comes out, but also how organized and how seamless the ordering process and everything else is. And while someone being a C, K D, definitely guarantees that they can't be incompetent. It doesn't have any way mean that they're that they're actually good. I've certainly met c k DS, no CK DS I've ever met, are actually incompetent, that would be impossible. It's too hard to become a CP to be incompetent. But I've met lots of ctds that were poor design. So they got that passed all the tests and everything else. But you know what they you know, and there's some great designers even that I know of that if you get a kitchen from them, you're probably not going to get a good pitch. And the reason has nothing to do with the knowledge that they have. It has to do with their personality, and that they're not, their personality isn't strong enough to help their customers override their bad ideas. So a lot of the times the best kitchen designers are telling you know, when you don't want to hear it, and are encouraging you to do things. You know, customers come to us with all kinds of ideas of things that they want to do and things that they think that are important to them. And the best kitchen designers find a way to get them to pick things that are more sensible or better investments or a lot of different ways. And those kitchen designers have lots of different techniques. There is no question. I am one of the bluntest and the hardest designers on customers generally, and I've met one of the reasons is it saves a lot of time. That's one of the reasons I do things a lot.

Tina  14:52  
I am I am a little bit I did just do. Eight years ago, a full kitchen About the size of the kitchen, I'm going to do now I do know what I like, I'm not everybody I have in my budget, a Wolf range, I just want induction, I don't want that I want to double ovens and induction, I know how I cook. I don't want that. I know it's beautiful, and it's so sexy in the kitchen. But I don't want that. And so I am opinionated. And you even with your bluntness couldn't talk me into a gas range? Because I don't.

Paul McAlary  15:25  
But that's, that's, yeah, the the, the appliances that you're using are very personal, tastes specific, but actually clean itself. Most customers will have convinced them that they cook a certain way. And they need their kitchen designed a lot of the times a certain way. And the reality is that human beings function certain ways. And even if you're used to something, we know that if there's some functionally better design, actually acclimate to that better design in a matter of a couple of weeks. And so yeah,

Tina  16:02  
that's really that's really smart.

Paul McAlary  16:05  
And the other thing too, is people come up with all kinds of convoluted reasons for things, even kitchen designers. So pitching designers will tell you all kinds of things reason rationales for the things that they do. We're all sort of prejudiced human, you're human beings are also to prejudice. And the best kitchen designers sort of aren't prejudiced. Sometimes customers come up with better designs than I do. And it's startling, but you know, sometimes the reason I didn't come up with a better design was because I didn't think it would be within their budget and so I sort of had to eliminate that talking to them. Or sometimes, you know, they'll say something that I just was thought was too intrusive. Well, what if I get rid of my staircase and put the staircase someplace else in my house? Well, gee, that would be really expensive and I didn't measure your whole house. Then think about where else your staircase could go. But it happens I am so happy and it's so interesting to me that somebody came up with something better than I did. I have nothing Yeah, good designers have nothing invested in their own designs. They're only invested in design

Tina  17:07  
well and I I'm kind of a practical girl and and and so I really need my designer to help a lot with the beauty I mean, I know I don't want a whole bunch of glass cabinets because I don't want to look at my stuff. I don't have beautiful stuff. I don't want to look at my stuff. I want to keep it clean. I just went door so give me a pretty door instead. And I already destroyed a kitchen of marble so I know I want a quartz type product because I'm too hard on a kitchen so I can't have that as beautiful as this so

Paul McAlary  17:39  
you could get courtside. It's not caught marble is the least durable surface you can pick. Quartz is beautiful though.

Nowadays, it's totally beautiful, but it's totally not durable at all on it etches scratches and stuff very easily. But granite is more durable than quartz in a lot of ways. Quartz has a melting temperature of 420 degrees or something like that. And so you can take a pot off your stove that's been right on the flames. If you were to put that on a quartz countertop, you would probably singe the countertop, although with induction well with induction, you know, maybe not so so much. Yeah.

Tina  18:21  
I mean an iron skillet, an iron skillet can can have a lot of heat in the pan even if you know you've anyway, I will revisit the stone situation but I haven't been attracted to granite because if

Speaker 2  18:40  
you like if you like but quartzite might. That's the compromise that people might look.

Tina  18:47  
Yeah, I looked at I looked at I just been introduced to quartzite. So I will revisit that when I think somebody showed me that but anyway,

Unknown Speaker  19:00  
designers more than the other.

Tina  19:05  
Yeah, but I'm I slightly like one a little bit. She's more convenient for me and I like her but I'm kind of drawn to the other product. The Dutch made product a little bit more. There's a particular she spoke, I spoke also there was a detail that I really like in my existing kitchen and when I tried to describe it to her and show up and then I eventually showed a picture. She knew exactly she called it a lamp or something and there's a book that I guess everybody uses but the other designer didn't connect with me on saying oh yeah that you're looking this when I was trying to communicate with her this detail that I liked on the island. So I mean just there was a few things and I had seen a picture that she had done that I really thought the it was actually a glass cabinet that I would use just in one little area over my coffee bar area. That was a very beautiful detail that I liked. And I don't know if anyway, but I just don't know, I don't want to, I don't know how to judge, I think they're both good. So I just don't quite know how to judge. And I may just pay him both for a design and see how the cost comes out, compare it as a cost. I feel like,

Paul McAlary  20:16  
if you're very brave, good, send us the design that they come up with. And I'll critique it for you and at least prevent any issues from arising that mean, very rare event that we get sent designs that we don't find mistakes. And so even you can be an amazing kitchen designer, or a good kitchen designer, and maybe not realize some engineering issues that you have with your design, or a common one is people are overly optimistic. For example, I don't know how high your ceilings are. Do you know how high your ceilings are in the room?

Tina  20:59  
They're 10, they're going to be 10 foot?

Paul McAlary  21:01  
And are you going all the way up to the ceiling with cabinetry? Well,

Tina  21:06  
I, I, I will either have it going all the way up, or I will have a soffit to come down because I don't want it to be open above the cabinet. So however, we resolve that it won't be open. It'll either be cabinetry, or trim or something, or soft or something that usually

Paul McAlary  21:30  
is to have, you know, smaller cabinets on top with larger trim to get you up to 10 feet. Or to do a tray ceiling or a coffered ceiling, what the door style is very traditional, or is it more contemporary, that you're

Tina  21:45  
right, which it's more traditional, and right now I have it all inset in my kitchen and I like it a lot. I like it a lot better. I have exposed hinge on my white cabinets and I have the they're inset but they have like a hinge you don't see and so they have soft clothes and stuff on them. And I in the dark in the wood cabinets. The not perfect alignment, the shadow lines of the inset, not being perfect, you know, eight years later doesn't really bother me on the wood cabinets. But it's a little bit more bothers me and the light painted wood. So and then that also is a little more restrictive in design, right? Because I don't like to just have two cabinets coming together. I want I need a divider in there. So in order for my me to be happy with that.

Paul McAlary  22:39  
So why do you need a device like that?

Tina  22:42  
Because I don't like the doors to come together without something in the middle when they're white? Because that gap in there bothers me.

Paul McAlary  22:50  
Oh, well, the gap did a gap the gap between the doors should be less than the gap between the door and the frame of the inset?

Tina  23:01  
Well, I just thought I was gonna see my stuff in there. So

Paul McAlary  23:06  
only if you had lights that in some way were shining through. Yeah, that would direct it. You might be able to at least a little bit of a line of the shelf. But that's actually rare thing if they're if they're pretty close. And yeah, we notice too when you were talking about the doors and the gaps not being perfect. Even with the finial hinges that your doors on the outside. Now, they make them with adjustments. They're not anywhere near as adjustable as the ones that you can't see though, the ones that you can see. But it's also hard to adjust. It's like every time I go out to a job site to adjust somebody's hinges I seem like I feel like I'm learning it all over and over again. Because it's you know, it's not necessarily intuitive. I'm turning one of these the six there's six way adjustable hinges. So the six different screws and different things. And the tracks are the same way. There's six different adjustments you can make on the tracks. And so you're moving things back and forth. And first, you have to make it worse to be able to figure out how to make it better. But they're all all of these things are more adjustable than they used to be. So you should be able to correct some of these things. Well,

Tina  24:19  
my, my, my my seems like there seems to be a trend here now way from the inset where they're doing the full overlay and getting, you know a look. That's nice and I kind of I don't mind it, but I think I'm going to be more drawn to that and my bathrooms and my laundry room. I have other rooms where there's cabinetry of a couple of offices and things like that. So I'm more probably going to be inclined to do that in no spaces than I am. They do another thing different here than back. I live in Maryland the other time I used to live in. I lived in Delaware at Radnor you anywhere that you know where that is? Sure. Yeah, years ago, years ago, my husband worked in St. Davids. Anyway. But then we lived in we live in the DC area

Paul McAlary  25:11  
is the main line of Pennsylvania. It's the train. So that's the name of our company, line kitchen. Ryan is on.

Tina  25:20  
Yeah, and my girlfriend lives in Devon and all right there. But anyway, back to them in Maryland, when I did my kitchen there. The kitchen, cabinet people also installed, they were all a team, the installers with the designers and the suppliers here. My builder installs now.

Paul McAlary  25:48  
Yeah, I think that's a better system actually. Do you? Yeah, the companies that everybody, you can't do everything well in this life. So if people specialize in the different things that they do, they'll do, they'll do a better job. And then there's also not really any finger pointing. So

when the cabinet company is installing the cabinets for you? Well, the builder is the one of the first thing that comes before them is the one that had to make all the ceilings level if it was required to make the moldings come in,

right. For for, you know, doing all the prep work and aligning the electrics, so that it's the undercabinet lighting is coming in the right place. And, and everything else, they have responsibilities that if there's not one brain sort of following all of this, it's sometimes Yeah, good idea. So generally, if a company has a design and build company, I find at least they tend to do a much better job building than they do designing. And if a company Yeah, just the cabinet company that makes you know, sells your cabinets, and then installs the cabinets for the builders, then that's sort of that I always think that that's sort of weird, that means that they that they really the builders that they're working with, you know, looking for this, and they're supplying it because the builders aren't capable. And the builders really be able to install the cabinetry. And because they're they should be seeing the whole process from one from from one point to another.

Tina  27:24  
Well, I mean, I love the way they do it here. And and and, and my this builder also does, like all the bookshelves and all this stuff. They have a they have a cabinet maker, yeah. company here that makes and does what they want. And they and put anyway. So I it should be good. Well, well, I you've given me a lot to think about. And I just, I think I like both of these and I hate to eliminate one and I'm not opposed to having a little oversight when we get to that point. If I feel like I just wish I had one more opinion. And and you have an arrangement where you, you know, review. I don't know what you're straight from the time you

Paul McAlary  28:07  
send us the printouts of your design, and I can I'll look at it and I'll comment did it on the same two hour slot that we have. And okay, one thing if you've got 10 foot high ceilings, if the room is at all rectangular, then then I think I really like a tray ceiling. Or if you want more ornate a coffered ceiling coming down to like nine feet six inches, six inches or nine feet three inches. And then having cabinets go up from there. Do you know what a coffered ceiling is? Where they're like I do

Tina  28:45  
but I Yeah, but I I'm it's coffered where the there's an angle like it returns at an angle up to the ceiling or something.

Paul McAlary  28:57  
tray ceiling is where there's a soffit that comes down around the whole perimeter of the whole room. And there's really that soffit then isn't that deep, usually it's maybe six inches or nine inches deep. And then inside the soffit. There's another level a hole molding going around the inside of the soffit. And then the cabinets have moldings on top and they reach the soffit. But because the whole soffit goes around the whole rectangular room, the middle of the room is recessed up and that's what a tray ceiling is. And a coffered ceiling, you'll recognize it when I describe it. It's that same tray, except that it's divided. The middle tray in the middle of the room is divided into boxes. And each one of the boxes has like trim going around it. So what's much more ornate. So yeah, don't do that. It's that might be too ornate for your style. But when you do that, it really gives the room character and you don't have to overly oppressive height of cabinets that you have, if you have a nine inch tray, then you can have nine inches or seven inches of molding, and then the cabinetry goes the rest of the way. And then the little cabinets that are on top aren't too big. They're sort of the perfect size. And then the bigger cabinets that are below those little cabinets are a really good size too. And all the numbers work out. When it's 10 feet. Try to go all the way up with 10 feet with moldings. Either the size of the doors of the cabinets become a little bit too big either the top ones at the bottom. Yeah, yeah, the moldings get too big, something's getting too big, and the train solves it.

Tina  30:44  
To be honest with you, I didn't want 10 foot ceilings because I don't want the house I want a nine foot mine here. Here's my problem. I'm right on Lake Michigan. And I want to look up my front windows with with big windows and not bring my window height down. So this is the whole reason I ended up with the 10. I have nine foot upstairs. But I have 10 foot on the main level. And it's really all because we've got a really lovely view here. And I want to feel as much of it as I can. So it's caused some problems because I like I'm right now living in a in a house that I went from a house in Texas that had high ceilings chose my house in Maryland that has like what is it eight but a little bit. It's not eight, three, that's eight, six or nine or something or other I don't know it's not nine. And I like it, my furniture fits better. It doesn't look last on the wall. I just like it. But I want to be able to see out those front windows and it's my window we're there

Paul McAlary  31:43  
to trim on those windows. I'm sure it doesn't go up to the ceiling, the trim on those windows probably stays at least nine inches below the ceiling, right?

Tina  31:53  
No, the they do it so that like I have eight foot doors. And then there's a transom over it. And it goes up and it's there's just a small between the window trim and the crown. They basically just trim between those because there's not enough space to have wall. It's just I don't know, it's not it's not significant.

Paul McAlary  32:19  
So you but you have the crown between the window does. So you would if you did a tray ceiling, you would take all the crown off of the perimeter of the room, you would build the soffits down, and then the crown would go around the inside perimeter of the room then. And you know if you're, if you like, if you send us the designs or if you we send you maybe some links if we have your email address to what a coffered ceiling would look like.

Tina  32:54  
I can Google it. Yeah.

Paul McAlary  32:57  
Offered or go on howes.com Google tray or you can sort of see what it looks like. Sometimes it's done poorly. But if it's done right, yeah. Nice.

Tina  33:06  
Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, that's all comments, comments that I had wanted to discuss. So I'm glad you brought that up. So good, good. All right. Well, I don't know if I have any more clarity, but I have a lot more information. I have some more questions that I want to ask. So I really appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Bye bye. Take care. Bye bye.

Mark Mitten  33:28  
Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maclary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai