Mark Mitten 0:02 Are you in the main line area and redoing your kitchen? Podcast? You better call Paul and make an appointment Paul McAlary 0:17 Hey, Eric, can you hear me? Yeah. Ken, how are you? Good. So welcome to calls with Paul. Okay, let's Unknown Speaker 0:23 look better call Paul better. That's okay. Paul McAlary 0:27 Better call Paul is actually taken by somebody. Which is why we don't really call it better call Paul. So I like the layout of the kitchen. The only thing I would say is that it looks like this is the Lazy Susan, you. You're the one thing that you don't really have in this kitchen. Eric 0:50 is Paul McAlary 0:53 I guess you have to roll out trays. You don't really have a pots and pans cabinet. Eric 0:57 Yeah. If you move them. I was wondering if it was like the one next to the range where the hood is. Or the peninsula itself. There's a wide 36 inch cabinet. Paul McAlary 1:11 Yeah, you can turn that 36 into your pot the pots and pans cabinets. Yep. I would tell you, when designers that work for me do it. I consider it a mistake when they design with a 21 inch, or an 18 inch or a 15 inch wide three drawer base, like a three drawer base that they've got that's 21 inches wide. Nobody needs deep drawers for a 21 inch wide cabinet. So a 21 inch wide cabinet. The inside of the drawers are five inches less. So you take 21 You subtract five, you got 16 inches. So now if you hold your hand at 16 inches, what are you putting in too deep drawers, I mean, I know you can put cutlery and knives, and spatulas and all kinds of stuff in the top drawer. The top drawer is no problem at all. You can have tin foil, saran wrap, all kinds of stuff with a top drawer, but who needs a 15 inch wide. And you know very more than one for in a kitchen. It's really the size of a bread drawer. So anything that you're going to be putting in there, either it's going to be deep, or you're just going to be piling stuff up on stuff. So that's why a big pots and pans cabinet is wide enough that you can put the pots in or the lids in and sort of, you know stack them up. It's not so bad because they're really big things. But that design is only leaving this 21 inch wide cabinets with the three drawers. So you got these all of these 16 inch wide interior drawers that are very deep. So it doesn't really make any sense. Eric 2:54 There's a maybe to the left of the range, but another like nine or 12 inch cabinet, I'm not sure the width of that. And then that'll allow for a wider. Yeah. Paul McAlary 3:07 So if you're looking at that with let's go here, doo, doo. So that cabinet is a 21 and a Unknown Speaker 3:18 24. Paul McAlary 3:20 So you got 45 inches. So for 45 inches, you could have a you know a lot of different ways to do a 45 inch space, you can have a 36 inch wide pots and pans drawers, and another nine inch cabinet on the side. And then you could maybe make one of the nine inch cabinets on one side, a cookie sheet and tray cabinet and make the other nine inch cabinet on the other side of this stove. I think the nicest thing there would be a they're called like a stair get steel utensil Polacks. So they have like a bin, a steel bin that's on top that you keep whisks and spatulas and spoons, so you don't have one of those things on top of your countertop with all of those things. And then underneath you can keep cooking oils and things like that. So you'd have that one pull out on one side of your stove, the other one on the other. And then me personally, I would change the 21 inch drawer base from a three drawer base to a four drawer base. Then you have one deep drawer on the bottom, and then three centered drawers. And the one deep drawer on the bottom could be your junk drawer could be a bread drawer. But the three thinner drawers want the thin drawer on top could be the spatula or whatever, then you could have saran wrap something like that. Then you could have a whole bunch of other stuff. But the four drawer bases are usually more functional for a 21 inch wide cabinet. But if you want it to be 20 If you want it to be a three drop base, it can be a three or it can be a three drop base. I just think people don't realize how deep and narrow the drawers are and then you find out that this doesn't work. You know, it depends on what your story like some people might have a whole bunch of. I don't know, if you were putting canned goods in it. You could stack them too deep or I'm not sure what you're going to do with it. It just too deep drawers that aren't that wide. Eric 5:20 Yeah, you're referring to the cabinets on the right. Paul McAlary 5:24 The cabinet ring. Yeah, the one on the right of the range is a 21 inch row base. And also the one right now to over on the left of the range is also a three drawer 21 inch drubbings. Eric 5:37 Yeah, so you think the one on the left the range becomes more of an open cabinet for Paul McAlary 5:43 other applications? Yeah, that became a 30. A 36 inch pots and pans draw a base. Pots and pans work better in drawers than having rollouts inside the cabinets a lot of the times and because the rollouts aren't very tall, so if you put pots and pans on it, you pull the rollout and everything falls out out on the floor. So a deep drawer base works best. Sometimes people make two drawer bases. So if the if the brand, the cabinets that you're using has a two drawer base, you could have one three drawer base to the left of the stove, and another two drawer base for really deep things in your Peninsula. Yeah, even if you did one with rollouts, that's good, too. It's good to have at least one pots and pans drawer base in your kitchen. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 6:34 I like that a lot. Paul McAlary 6:35 Yeah, the other thing is, I mean, there's a twice up to about how you want to do it. There's different ways to do it. You've got your trash can on the nd or peninsula. So when your trash cans on the end of your Peninsula, it's the most accessible to you. When you're at the peninsula, when maybe you're working there, it's easy for people that are coming from the dining room area or the kitchen table area to be able to get to that double trash can pull out. But for people that might be scraping stuff off in the kitchen sink or cleaning stuff at the kitchen sink. A lot of times the trash can is better to the right of the kitchen sink. So the Eric 7:16 that's we have two trash cans really in that design. Do you Okay, yeah. That was my brilliant idea. I was very proud of that actually. One spot and one's more of a cleanup spot, right? Paul McAlary 7:29 Yeah, that works very well, too. And one can be that the 18 is a double. So that can be recycling, and even the 15 that you have to the right of your sink. I don't know if you've picked the sink out yet. But your sink cabinet, it looks like you got a filler, a one inch filler to the right of the sink cabinet. And then that's a 15 inch cabinet. And then if your sink is the actual sink that's listed here, which is 20 inches by 31. That 31 inch sink only needs a 33 inch sink base, even though somebody might tell you otherwise, it really only 33 inch sink base, in which case, you could have the 33 and sink base. Flip the filler to the other side. And then make the 15 inch another double trash can pull out. Eric 8:26 Yep, I see what you're saying. So it's so taller, make the trashcan bigger. A three inch Paul McAlary 8:33 trashcan unit only holds a single trash can or you actually can hold. It can hold a double but there'll be 27 inch trash can units and it will be a sort of a little bit flimsy or metal pull out. You can get a solid wood really nice pull out for a double 35 Quart trash can in an 18 inch cabinet like you have on the end of your Peninsula. So if you made your sink cabinet a little bit narrower and then move the filler over to the dishwasher area. Or let me do the math here. You got 140 inches across. Yeah, so you're not you're not going to get no matter what you do. You can't get like another Lazy Susan into the other corner. You're gonna have a blind you're gonna end up with a blind cabinet or a dead cabinet there. Yep. Yeah. And then that has a it says BBC 48 R. And then it's CR w is that some kind of pull out unit inside the blind cabinet or something? Eric 9:38 It is kind of the apparatus inside an accessory that allows you to put a shelf that kind of swings out I guess. Uh huh. Paul McAlary 9:48 So just to warn you about that cabinet. That Yep, first off that swing out unit. I'm sure it's costing you more than $500 And then secondly, it looks okay to me. But a lot of these swing out units need a lot of space. And so they don't work when you have any kind of appliance that sticks out more than like a regular cabinet door would. So sometimes when the swing out mechanism comes out, they could hit the dishwasher, they could hit your oven cabinets when they the oven, double ovens when they come out, I think you're safe in your design. But certainly, if your ovens were arrange instead of double ovens, then you couldn't do it. Then if the swing out thing was one that swung out in that direction, you would hit something, if I don't know which kind of swing out you have, it says a C, SW corner. It all depends on how that swing out works, whether or not it's going to hit the dishwasher door or hit the ovens. But I think you're okay. But in my mind, I'd rather have you know, what is always a bunch of crap that you'd never use, like a bread maker or a walk or something like that, save yourself 500 bucks, stuff it all in the back corner, because you're never going to use it and put the stuff that you're going to use right up front. Now you open the door to that cabinet, you have everything that you need right up front. And the stuff that you never use goes in that one blind spot. And I like that a lot. And by the way, that when the thing swings out, when you figure out how much of that inside of the cabinet, you're actually using those swing out things have to pass through the opening of the door. So because of that they usually waste about 40% of the overall cabinet space that you would have. So you get more space and you save 500 bucks if you do it simply. But other than that, you know, this is a good design. Although I don't I can't see where you're eating. Right. So it's not included in the in the least what I'm looking at here. So Eric 12:05 yes, we're the peninsula's, that's now currently a wall that on the other side is a dining room, we're not in that wall. So we'll have an overhang. The depth of it to be honest, I don't recall off top my head. Paul McAlary 12:22 In this picture, it looks like your overhang is more than a foot, which you probably wouldn't do. Because if you're going to have a wall and back in your cabinets, that's to give you a self a little bit more space, you're not going to have it be two levels already that we were gonna go one level, one level is much better, because two levels is too high to serve off of. So as a one level thing, you can tuck the stools and and people could be you could be serving dinner right on that on your Peninsula, the people that are going to the table. You know, I would tell you that with our company. When you design somebody's kitchen, you always have to show the whole room. So if you're taking out that wall, our designers have to show the dining room table. So we can make sure that we're leaving you enough space for your dining room table and door that we're not wasting space. So when you don't show the rest of the space, nobody has any idea. None of the designer itself has no idea what kind of distances he's leaving. It's sort of the lazy persons approach. Yeah. Eric 13:31 So what is the recommended distance between the end of the back of the pendants law to like a dining room table that Paul McAlary 13:41 so the end of the countertop to the dining room table should be 48 inches, at least we cheat sometimes and make it a little bit tighter and make it 45. If you get anything closer than 45 Well, then certainly, when somebody sits at the countertop, their back is usually about two feet in back of the countertop, unless they're scooting in to let somebody by what if they're sitting comfortably their back is about 24 inches. So if someone was sitting at the table and someone was sitting at the island at the same time, and you left yourself 48 inches, their backs would be essentially touching each other where the back of the person at the peninsula would be hitting the back of the chair of the person sitting at the table. But that doesn't really ever happen very often that anybody is sitting at both places at the same time. But if you do tuck the stools in, then you still if you're leaving 48 inches only have two feet to get in back of somebody that's sitting at the table to get through right. So you can turn sideways two feet and get to the other side of the table. But if you're not leaving 48 inches, all of these things are really getting tightened. Yeah The other thing too is, it's a big area. If you were getting too tight, you could make something a little bit smaller, you really don't even necessarily have to have the wall that's in the back of the cabinets, that doesn't need to be a wall that could just be a piece of plywood. And then you could overhang the countertop 12 inches, and then that's going to save you six inches if you just put a piece of plywood on the back of the island, and or doors on the back of the plywood to make it more attractive. But you could just have it be a piece of plywood, this overhang of foot. Eric 15:32 What's the recommended distance? Overhead overhang. 12 inches Paul McAlary 15:40 12 inches is recommended anybody that six feet and under will be comfortable at a 12 inch overhang. If you're taller than sick, well, it's funny, but different people have different length limbs. So I always use this as an example. But our the engineer that edits our podcast is going to hear this. And then he'll know I'm talking about him. But I have a friend. And he and his wife are whatever seven inches difference in height, but their legs are both the same length. Yeah, I can't remember which who is who. But I think his wife has the longer legs. So she's got these long legs. So she would be she would be you know, even though he's over six feet, I think he she would be just as likely to have problems sitting on a stool that was shorter than 12 inches. But if you're really tall, if you have long issue legs, then you might want to make a distance deeper than 12. But once an overhang is deeper than 12, then you need brackets for your countertop to help support it. Yeah, we Eric 16:47 want to avoid that. Yeah, for sure. Well, the Paul McAlary 16:49 brackets don't have to be visible. There are kinds of brackets, people can get that our flat cast iron bars that sit on top of the cabinets that get cut into the top of the cabinet and mounted and they'll support a countertop, but it also looks a little funny from the side. If the countertop is hanging out a really long distance, right. Yeah, I guess the other thing is, you got blind cabinets in each corner of this kitchen. Right? Eric 17:19 So easy. Susan's getting to this corners. Is there your furniture? Paul McAlary 17:25 No in the bot in the in the bottom one corner you have a lazy sighs Yeah. But the wall cabinets that you have in this designer to blind wall cabinets? Yes, yeah, yeah, usually we're trying to avoid line cabinets, I would say with a wall cabinet, it's better to get a dead corner than it is a blind corner. It's like you're never gonna find even be able to reach that stuff all the way in the back of that corner. But you've got to your window, it says you've got 40 inches on one side to the window and 40 inches to the other side of it. But if it was me, I would put either a easy reach cabinet, which is a folding door cabinet in each corner, or I'd put an angle cabinet in each corner. And then you'd still have enough room for a 15 inch wall cabinet. On each side, putting a blind cabinet there is just the worst choice. Eric 18:18 The Spark. So this towards the front of the house right now with the sink is on that picture. Right now that Windows very big, this will be a new window. Okay, so it'll be a custom made window. And I wasn't sure about that, frankly, I wasn't sure about the size of the window, what we should do. And then kind of a debate on how close the window can be to the cabinetry that's still balanced. Paul McAlary 18:48 So it doesn't want you to know, your window can be as close as you want. You just don't want to touch it. And you're going to have trim around this window, right? Yep. Yeah, so you want to account for the trim that you're getting. So when when kitchen designers put a window in the picture, we're including the trim, where we should be in the measurements. So I'm just looking at the picture of your kitchen. Yeah, they have window trim around the window. So hopefully the width of the window. In this picture, it looks like the width of the window is I can't really tell it doesn't tell me how wide this window is. Eric 19:29 But it's window right now. There's a 70 some inch window there, which we're removing and putting new siding up in the hole minute. What Paul McAlary 19:35 size window are you putting in? Eric 19:38 Well, it'll be a custom made window, whatever we get. We want to make it as big as possible. So I had a question on like, Paul McAlary 19:47 Well, I would say yeah, I would say the perfect size would be to have a 15 inch cabinet on each side of the window. That way you can open the door when you're at the sink and have the is accessible to you. So if whatever that was, if those were coffee cups on one side, and spices on the other side, if you wanted it to be, or whatever you might want it to be, you want these doors to open, so that you could open them in that direction if you made the corners accessible, and then either that's a diagonal corner cabinet, or that's a folding your cabinet. But whichever you pick, they're 24 inches wide. So we take your 140 inches, and we subtract 24 on one corner minus 24 On the other corner, minus 15 for a wall cabinet on one side, minus 15 on a wall cabinet on the other side, and we're left with 62 inches, I think it will be good to leave yourself two inches to spare. So minus two, that leaves you with 60 inches for the window, including the trim. Okay, so where are you gonna get a window that had two and a half inch casing around it, which is the standard size window trim. A lot of times everybody wants to get big window trim, which is nice, but it's going to make your window smaller. So I would maybe use two and a half inch casing. So then let's let's even be generous and say minus six. That would leave you with a 54 inch window. And if you want to be extra kept making them custom, if you made it a 53 inch window that lets them shim on either side, if they got it a little bit off the center, the rough opening that they would leave maybe might be 54. But the window itself might be 53. Eric 21:41 Yep. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Paul McAlary 21:44 The chimney hood is the kind of style food that you like. Eric 21:49 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Paul McAlary 21:53 So the only reason I'm asking is sometimes designers put a chimney hood into picture. And it's not the kind of wood that you're getting. And then we don't have any place for your microwave. I assume that your double oven is going to be an oven below. And maybe a speed oven or microwave above. Correct? Yep, exactly. Right. So is it going to be a speed oven above? Or? Eric 22:17 It's a it's a microwave that has convection capabilities. Paul McAlary 22:22 Okay. And then the door? How does the door open? Does it? Is it hinge from one side? Or how do you how does it open, Eric 22:30 it comes down like a like a traditional oven. It's just a smaller Paul McAlary 22:33 x. Okay, so just to warn you, the mistake that people make, when they get that kind of oven is it's a convection oven. So you could be keeping your pizza hot in it, right? While you're cooking something below or whatever you're doing, that oven can be very hot inside too, because it's. So when that oven door comes down, if you mount that oven too high, you will burn your arms every time you try to take something out of that oven. So the height of the bottom of that oven should never be above 42 inches 42 inches Eric 23:14 for the oven. For the oven. Paul McAlary 23:17 For the speed of the other oven that you're going to be putting there is going to be 30 inches, sometimes their combined units, I don't know if he's yours a combined unit, or it is. So if it's a combined unit, you just probably want to mount it as low as possible, maybe mounted as low as possible to keep the drawer on the bottom of this cabinet and then just mounted as low as possible. It may not be the most attractive place for it to go. But you can order out fake drawer fronts over the top of the ovens. But just you have to figure out I don't know how big it is. But that's just the one thing when those ovens open down, that can be problematic for anybody that's short for anybody that's trying to access them when they're hot. Yeah, that makes sense. And it looks like they're using a two piece crown molding which is good. Eric 24:06 This is drawn up with a shaker design. Okay. And one of our challenges is we wanted to have like a lab with a contemporary house. Okay. We're looking for slab and we're really struggling to find I was going by a lot of the recommendations you have on your site, the, you know, the woods, the cabinetry and making sure it hits certain specs, and frankly struggling to find a slab that meets those specs, that's still like a value. Paul McAlary 24:39 Right? So you kind of have a problem with that. Yeah. But the other thing is, is if you got a Shaker door style and you got this style hood, and you got handles that were very contemporary, and you got backsplash tile that's very contemporary. A Shaker door style can look very contemporary. You wouldn't want you want the cove crown molding that yeah On top, maybe you'd want an angle crown molding instead, you can make a Shaker Door look contemporary. But if you got the slab doors, usually, the slab doors actually look better on frameless cabinets instead of frame cabinetry. And generally the best buys that you're going to find are going to be in framed cabinetry, because it's so much more popular. So if you're going to mass over do something mass produce to make it accessible financially and be well made, make the thing that's really popular. So there's not that many wellmade inexpensive frameless cabinets, in order to get a well made frameless cabinet usually end up being in a more expensive cabinet line. There's a couple of cabinet lines that are framed cabinet lines that make slab doors. But because of how the hinges work on a framed kitchen, the door fronts aren't going to be as tight as in a frameless kitchen. And you know, with the slab doors, it just looks so much nicer if the gap between the doors is like not a credit card thickness, but like a couple of credit cards very, very tight. Whereas Yeah, most framed cabinets, the gap is going to have to be almost a half an inch between and a half inches in gigantic right. But it almost a half an inch between the door fronts. Gotcha. I mean, we're considering carrying a cabinet brand. That's very reasonable that's less expensive than fab you would call cubed tech that has slept doors on a frame cabinet. So people have that option. They could get a very well made cabinet. They could get it very reasonably 20% less than fab you would, but they're going to have a slab door and they're going to have a half inch gap between them of course, so not the best looking. Whereas if you didn't get that brand from us and you are getting a slab door you probably end up in Bishop cabinets with us bishop would make three quarter inch thick plywood, cabinetry in frameless, which is the most durable construction that you can get in frameless cabinets, and they'll have every kind of door you might want. And they're not any more expensive for frameless than they are for frame but they're 40% More than fabulous or maybe 30% At least. So that's not an uncommon issue that you're going to have and there's a reason the inexpensive cabinets that are well made are being mass produced to a market that is 95% frame cabinets. We sell probably 5% frameless cabinets in our area. There's a lot of frameless cabinets that are sold downtown Philadelphia, but a lot of times they used to be Cogan bowl, or very expensive brands, but they're out of business poking home now, they couldn't even support themselves down in Philadelphia. So the frameless cabinets are just not that accessible. You can't get a well made one very easily. That's going to be inexpensive. Eric 28:17 There'll be lots of true ones. Paul McAlary 28:19 But they won't even be that cheap. There'll be more than five you would and there'll be mad at a particle board and be terrible. Eric 28:26 Yeah. Yeah, we just went with a with a brand. And then read your reviews of that brand and pitching crafts. No, it was Berlant. Oh, marillac. Yeah. Yeah. So then we were like, oh, let's avoid that. And then I saw the wolf cabinetry. There. Freddie had their frames. Yep. Right. Paul McAlary 28:53 So they had had the brands that are going to be frameless that are going to have and what kind of slab Did you want? Like a Eric 29:03 you know, a St. Square. Paul McAlary 29:06 Well, I mean, what kind of finish? Did you want it to be? Eric 29:10 Painted, painted white. Yeah, white and black problems. We're thinking maybe a darker color on the bottom and a lighter color on the top, we're still fighting over that aspect of it. Paul McAlary 29:21 So it's like a brand we used to carry CNC. That's very inexpensive. We don't carry them anymore because they were having supply chain issues. They make a slab white and slab black door style, but it's thermofoil. So it's a plastic coated cabinet, because that makes it sort of contemporary and that makes it easy to clean. It also makes it easily damaged by heat. So if the seal of your oven goes, you worry that you're going to melt the cabinets on either side of your oven. Yeah, it's that sort of the thing when you get contemporary that if you wanted a white painted cabinet. That's that Much more unusual. As far as I know, the best brand for you to be in, that I can think of. We don't carry at the moment, but we will be carrying, which is cabaco. So cabaco has a white slab door. But again, when you get the white slab door, it's a frame cabinet. So you're gonna have the bigger gaps, so you have to live with that. But then you'd have a really well made cabinet. And it will be inexpensive. And it will be a white slab door painted. Unknown Speaker 30:31 You gotta have to pick your poison. Paul McAlary 30:34 Yeah, and a lot of times when people get white slabs, their laminate doors to you know Formica, so that they're shiny. Eric 30:45 Yeah, so what's your opinion on a wood door, versus like a, like a CNC thermofoil door? Well, Paul McAlary 30:55 if you want it to be contemporary, and you want it to be the most durable, the laminate doors, the formica doors are the most durable. It's from mica, you can't really damage it. And you're not my age, I'm sure you're much younger. It used to be that the formica had a brown backing to it. So that these Formica doors had like were white on the front, but then they had like a brown line going around them. Well, they make the backing for mica on these doors now white too, so that you don't really notice the scene. And then once they're from mica, they're pretty much indestructible. They're not sensitive to heat, you're not going to melt them, they're going to be shiny, you can clean them really easily with Windex, or anything that you want. It's for Miko, right. So like, if you've got a slab painted door, you're going to have all the problems that people have with painted doors, which is that you know, the paint can easily get nicked or scratched. If it's a painted door, and it's a slab, you can't really have the slab have very pointy corners. Because then the paint wouldn't stick there, right, it will be easily to rub off. So even this door has to have a little bit of a rounded corner on it just for the paint to be able to stick. Whereas if it's from mica, it can be totally square. That's why the things that are really popular in a frameless slab door and white, that are going to be mass produced are going to be like the formica doors a lot of the time. And then now you got something that's easy to clean. If it's a well made cabinet like you sell Bishop, the one good thing is you're picking a door that's so popular that it's one of the door styles that's a little bit less expensive in Bishop, they have all plywood construction, or you get solid wood Dovetail drawers and everything else. So you get a really well made cabinet. And it's not that much more expensive than fab you would but it will be more expensive than fab you would, because it's in a more expensive line. But that's sort of the choices that you're going to be stuck with. Eric 33:02 I had a question too, about spacing with the fridge back on the design side. So between like where the fridge is, and and the peninsula. That space in between? Do you feel that? Is that good? That'd be bigger. Should we cut back that on the insula? Paul McAlary 33:22 Yeah, you got plenty of room. If you leave yourself 36 inches, that's plenty of space, and you have more than 36 There. Okay. Yeah, Eric 33:31 I think it was like 42 Maybe there. Paul McAlary 33:34 Yeah, that's fine. Okay, anything 36 and above, it's fine. And 42 is certainly very comfortable. You know, the biggest thing I would do is I change the two wall corners. And if you change the wall corners to the 20 fours and the fifteens that's going to make Yes, then you'll have maybe folding door cabinets in the corner or a corner an angled corner cabinet and then you'll end up with a 27 inch wall cabinet to the right of your oven cabinet after that, and then on the other side, when you're doing this, everything doesn't have to be crazy symmetrical. You've got 3030 3030 That's nice, but it's more symmetry than you even need really. So probably if I made that a 24 Then you're gonna have you got you got 63 inches to end up in the same place where you were before I would make it a 24 inch cabinet in the corner. Then I would have a 33 inch cabinet. And then I would have an 18 inch cabinet after that. And now that 18 inch cabinet, the door is going to open to the left. So when you're at your stove, if you want to have oils, or you're saying right doors are opening in the wrong way right now, so you can't get at them when you're standing at the stove. So Have you have 24 in the corner than a 33 than an 18. Now you have a nice wide 18 inch cabinet, the doors going to open, you'll be able to get at it on the left side of the stove. Now we go to the right side of the stove, and we're going to have an 18. Again this start, right, but the ends will be on the right hand side is that the left hand side. And then right now you're actually ending your wall cabinets with the wall that you're building, they're like six inches short of the end of the wall. So plus six, you really have six extra inches, you could go further down, if you wanted to, you want to leave yourself 12 inches of space between the end of the countertop and a wall cabinet so that when people are sitting there, they don't have a wall cabinet in their face, but 12 inches behind. So you have a 66 inches total. So if I took that 66 And I said minus 18 equals 48 inches that are left. So maybe what I would do is I would go 18 On the right side of the stove, and then I would go 30. And then I would have another 18 maybe opening in the opposite direction. So somebody that was at the sitting at the peninsula, couldn't maybe grab something out of that cabinet if they wanted to, like salt and pepper shakers or something like that. Yeah. And then you'll have 18 3018. So there'll be sort of some symmetry on the right side of the stove, but the doors will be opening in a good direction. And then on the left side of the stove, you'll have 1833 and then a 24 inch corner cabinet or whatever. But that just works a lot better. Cemetery is good. But you don't want to have symmetry at the expense of function. Eric 36:50 No, I like the concept of at the stove open for quick access. Paul McAlary 36:54 Yeah. Uh huh. And that also, as far as symmetry goes, now you got an 18 on the left side of stove 18 On the right side of the stove. With the design when you're talking about you have a nine inch cabinet on each side of the stove, too. So that's making it a little bit more symmetrical around the stove, as well. Overall, you sacrifice some symmetry gained other symmetry. It's certainly no less symmetrical just a lot more functional. And more storage. Eric 37:18 Yeah. This is awesome. I love these suggestions are made this is fantastic. Atmosphere recommended for us to explore was like what cabaco cabaco? I guess. Yep. But um, Bishop was another are you located in our area? Yeah, we're in Chester Springs area 40 minutes away, Paul McAlary 37:41 we're pretty reasonable for cabinetry. So depends on where you're buying cabinetry, were less expensive than a Lowe's or Home Depot for cabinetry. You know, not a lot less, but maybe 5% Less we carry Timberlake, which is the same as like a Shannon doe brand would be at Lowe's, or American Woodmark is at Home Depot. So we sell that 5% Less, we're very reasonable for, you know, all the cabinet brands that we carry. And there's something to be said to for even if you're getting cabinetry, you know, you can use us and our podcast to help you. But if you're actually buying cabinets from us, then we're guaranteeing that everything fits, you have a lifetime warranty on all the cabinets that we sell. So even fab you what are the brands that don't have a lifetime warranty, we're guaranteeing them for life, just because we know when we're selling them that they're all upgraded. And that's the only way we sell them. And then, you know a lot of times to this other things that come up along the way that we're helping people with, it's all the same money, like who's installing your kitchen. Eric 38:47 We just interviewed a contractor that will probably act on the circling back next week. Paul McAlary 38:52 One of the ways to even save a lot of money is you get the design exactly the way that you want it. I mean, this is pretty close. But I would have several contractors bid on it. That's what makes contractors competitive, their estimates are free. So they're coming out to your house, they're all knowledgeable, hopefully they're all doing it for a lot of years. They'll all have some input that they give you. And then whatever input that they do give you it was free, and then they'll won't give you estimates. And then you may end up hiring somebody very different. Even though I know 100 contractors, I wouldn't just hire one, I would still have three of them Bid my house. I even made the mistake once of hiring a contractor just to do some small work around my house. And once I was paying him by the day, suddenly he was coming at nine o'clock in the morning but leaving at three and then I come home one day and he's doing work on my neighbor's house. I didn't even get along with the neighbor on one side of my house. And they've done a whole bunch of things that would make anybody Want to pull their hair out. And here he's fixing their gutter for them. Right on the time that I'm paying him by the day for, it was foolish of me to even even consider that I shared ahead and bid the job and had other people bid on it. And they just hired the person that I wanted to. And then it would have been more professional. Once we stopped having it be professional suddenly wasn't working out. So well. Yeah. But yeah, so I mean, that's another thing too, is if we came out way we work, you have to put $150 down to have one of the designers come out and measure. But then somebody's measuring, checking your design, vetting the whole thing. If you're taking out a wall, they're checking to make sure what's in the wall generally see if it's a load bearing, see what's going to be involved, is there ductwork in your wall that needs to be rerouted? What other stuff might we have to consider when we're redoing this, and then when they do the design, they do the design, they'll be able to price it all out exactly for you, in any of the cabinet brands that we carry, you can see this thing in 3d, just like the Home Depot designer did only it's costing you $150 to get three or four appointments with us that you should be getting a whole lot of information from. And then we can price out your bishop, we can price that anything that we sell, and all that's part of the $150 deposit. And then if you want the plans and the drawings, like these guys gave to you from us, well, then you have to put down 10% towards the cost of the cabinets that you're buying from us. But at that point, you have already have the number. So you'd be able to, you're pretty smart, I can tell and you have this plan. So you can reproduce things anywhere that you want to get pricing. And that's really why we do it for $150 is pretty much unless people are going to Costco or someplace else. We're pretty much very reasonable for cabinetry. So we're not very worried about doing a bunch of work upfront for people for the $150 deposit. So you can think about that, too. Eric 42:00 Yeah, let me so how long? Two final questions. So what how long would it take from a deposit to plans drafted, Paul McAlary 42:09 we're not putting a design on the computer. So we measured it. So I'm sure we can measure it next week. And I'm sure the following week, you would have designs that were done. And we could price it out, I have no plans. The different brands that you think you might want to consider is like Bishop, but then Bishop is also going to take a little bit longer to get cabinets. So a lot of these brands like fab you wood, and some of the other brands are going to come very quickly. They'll come in three or four weeks. But generally, the way that you end up spending a lot of money and not spending it well is sort of rushing, you're better off taking your time. I mean, how much better is your kitchen right now if the plucking to me for 45 minutes, right? It's a different kitchen, it's a lot better. The more time you spent working on it with somebody that's knowledgeable, the better it gets. And same thing with the contractors. If the contractor could start tomorrow, I worry about that. How come he's not busy. You want people to bid on the job. You want different contractors giving you input bidding on it, you want to make sure that everybody's on the same age, you know, and then pull the trigger on starting the project. And then usually, by the time this contractor schedules the job, it doesn't even matter what brand the cap that you're getting. The contractors have booked up for a couple of months, and then they don't even cabinets for two or three weeks after that. So no matter what brand you're getting, there's plenty of time to get cabins. If this guy that you got an estimate from is going to be ripping things out very shortly. I mean, it couldn't be just luck. But unless he's a personal friend or something like that, when they can start so soon. They will contractors we've worked with that were very inexpensive. And I said, you know God, you underbid the contractors we recommended, and you guys did an amazing job. I said, we'd love to recommend you. They said that they said, well, we'd love to do your jobs. I said, How booked up by you. They said, Well, we're booked up like a year in advance. I said, Oh, that's too far for us. But I thought to myself, What a terrible businessman, right? Doesn't make no sense being booked up for a year in advance, raise the prices that you charge people so that you're booked up maybe three months in advance, then you'll make more money, everybody will still be happy. Your customers won't have to wait so long to do your jobs. And that's a better business model. But if you're inexpensive, and you're available, then that scares me, right? If you're expensive and you're available, well that can be a bunch of reasons that could be because you have a ton of different subcontractors that you use. And you have a whole Rolodex full of plumbers and electricians and drywallers and carpenters and and tile guys and everything else that you're doing because you're solving the whole project. out. And that actually makes you a little bit more expensive or significantly more expensive having that business model, but it allows you to be able to start pretty rapidly. But that business model makes you more expensive. If you're a small contractor, and you can start really fast that either you've gotten really lucky, or there's a reason that you're not booked up. Yep. So, whatever, take all that. And if you if you want, you can fill out the contact form on our website, just mentioned that you're from the podcast, and I'll know, and then I'll assign you to Chris or myself, one of the designers are Jeremy, one of the designers that's more experienced, and maybe has a construction background, so that we can check on your load bearing wall and some other stuff for him. Eric 45:46 Me as this, you also got you guys do bathrooms. Paul McAlary 45:50 We only get involved in people's bathrooms, if they're doing a kitchen with us. When is it a bathroom? A real bathroom? Or is it a powder Eric 45:58 that we have a master bedroom that is circa 1982. And that whole thing needs to be designed. And it's got a weird five by a tub that we're going to rip out that a really small shower. And it's a sizable room, but it's just really poorly laid out currently. And we can't get our head wrapped around it as far as what the best design would be. Paul McAlary 46:22 Well, if we're helping you with your kitchen, then I certainly have no problem helping you with the bathroom, there might not be enough cabinetry in it to really make a ton of sense getting cabinets from us, which is why we only do it if we're working on your kitchen. If you're buying cabinets from us, we're very reasonable for cabinets, but there's like a $500 delivery charge. So, you know, $500 on a $10,000 kitchen is I'm looking at your kitchen with all of the cabinetry in your kitchen. And in fact, you would you're probably I don't know, in the Shaker door style and Fab you would, this looks to me to be like 13 $14,000 in cabinetry, maybe at least. But if you're getting $14,000 in cabinetry, $13,000 in cabinetry. A $500 delivery charge is nothing. But if you're getting one vanity, that's $500 You'd be much better off getting that a Lowe's or Home Depot or Lowe's stock, some well made vanities and you could get your vanity and your top, all for the price that you could probably get a vanity from us for. Eric 47:29 Yeah, and I think we'll probably make that arrangement today or tomorrow on the site. And yeah, and then probably explore the bishop line. And then as well as the you said there was one that was similar to the American heritage. Paul McAlary 47:48 But you know, what I can do too, is when really considering carrying the the Cuban Tech, we have all the literature, we could actually order them, we could pull the trigger on ordering them whenever we wanted. That'd be awesome. You might have to wait for a sample to come in of a door. Just I'm sure the rep would not would probably jump in his car with one if we said we were going to carry them. I mean, really, we're one of the bigger cabinet dealers. So everybody's looking for our business. They're pretty excited about us considering them, but we can show it to you when you're in. Eric 48:20 Live a great. Alright, so Paul McAlary 48:22 just mentioned that you're from the podcast. And then yeah, I'll probably what I'll do is I'll assign you to me, you know, just where you got the feeling of how it is working with me. I'm a little bit blunt. So Eric 48:35 I love the candor. Paul McAlary 48:37 So if you're okay with if you're okay with it, it saves time, right? So yeah, it saves a little bit of time for everybody, everybody's time because you're over my time is your time to write. So it saves a little bit of time. But the other designers are definitely a little bit easier going. I mean, it's not their company. They can't maybe be as blunt as I might be. Kirsten, I'd rather be curtain. timid, you know. Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, we make money when people buy cabinetry from us. So we can't really alienate them so much that they don't want to like us and don't want to buy kitchens from us, we have, we still want their business. But if a lot of times, if we're blunt, or a little bit tougher on our customers, they actually end up getting better kitchens. And in the end, we appreciate it. So a lot of times, I do less kitchens now. So I don't get as many reviews. But in the past, I used to be always getting these reviews, but I'm the one that's mean to the customers, but I'm getting all these great reviews, because after their kitchen is done, they realize that oh my god, I fought with all over this thing. And now look at this, it's so much better than it would have been that way. So in the end, it's always it's not my house, it's always your house, and you're going to pick the things that you want. If we're really lobbying for you to make one choice over another. That usually is something that in the end you yourself will probably like better. Cool. So okay, so I'll look for your email and Good talking to you. Alright, Paul, thank you very much. I appreciate it. No, America talking to you. Eric 50:07 Cheers. All right, bye bye. Mark Mitten 50:08 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with the world's greatest Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainland kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai