Mark Mitten  0:03  
Are you about to put 10 pounds of cabinet sausage in a 10 pound wrapper? Without laser level verification? Better call Paul.

Paul McAlary  0:16  
Hi, Laura, this is Paul from mainland kitchen design. Welcome to calls with Paul, can you hear me?

Laura  0:22  
I sure can. And, again, thank you for taking my call. And I appreciate all the things that I've read. So where I'm at is we are doing basically it's going to be two kitchens. One kitchen is for a rental property, we're we're removing in both cases, original kitchens that were oak, but they were pretty good quality in the back of the time in the 40s. But obviously, none of the features but when you look at the outside of the wood, it looks pretty good. And what I do appreciate is that you have written, hey, white painted cabinets are not quite the same, no matter what line because water on white paint is more harmful. Let's say that it would have been on wood where you could have put little, you know, Gordian magic markers, almost that kind of stuff. And I do know there's touch up for the white. So getting back to that. So here's my issue, because one is a rental property. And it's been vacant because we started with remodeling bathrooms. And now we said let's do the kitchen. I can't wait the longer time for you know, maybe better quality cabinets. For instance, whether or not they're great, but I did do Thomasville last summer in a beach property. But I could wait that basically the 11 or whatever weeks for them to come in. So what I'm focusing on now is the fab you would, or the other one is forevermore. I look a little bit at J and K. And then a little bit of a new claim. But I didn't go down that road, but Ryko Silva green something or other or far or something? I think. Yes. And I saw you let you know, you you, you know, gave marks to all of these reforested that go on.

Paul McAlary  2:06  
All of them are not made any worse than Thomasville. I mean, Thomasville cabinets are more expensive. But they're they're not even, you know, you would have to upgrade Thomasville to the highest level to be equal in construction to any one of these brands that you just so even though it's an expensive brand, you know, the reason it's more expensive is that it's offering many different kinds of finishes and kinds of wood and customizations and all kinds of other things. It's not known to be the greatest, you know, constructed cabinet, although they've upgraded it now. So that it you know, it's it's well made, but it's not made any better than these other brands. So you haven't really sat

Laura  2:55  
in? That's good to hear. Yeah, that's and I get I know you sell the savvy wood. Now what I did know is forever mark and the fabby wood, and I'm basically looking in the Forever wood. I'm looking at towneplace crema, or the town collection. I think these are all platinum up up sound white, so ones either white, or ones a little more off white and fabby. Would it would be fusion to be the off white and the white would be fusion. Yeah.

Paul McAlary  3:26  
Pretty. You don't want that. Yes, those doors 1000 Fab you would there 18% More. Why would you want to rent, right? And spend 18% more on a fancier twist out? You should be getting galaxy. Yeah, Galaxy

Laura  3:41  
is I think the White kind of stuff the white. So yeah, so here was my question, because you sold both, is, again, I didn't mind spending more money in the event that my son might move into this house, basically, you know, I don't do any work, I gotta pay for it. So again, I appreciate you saying I was kind of coming down between either the fabby wood, or the forever mark and the guy that sells forever, Mark, as I said, Hey, Fabian wood has the bloom blue motion. And he said, Listen, I'll warranty my hinges and stuff for five years. He was kind of saying and again, you sell both wines. And he thought that his product was as good as savvy would Oh, no,

Paul McAlary  4:22  
I don't forevermore, but I think the forevermore, so Fabbi would just sell fab, you wouldn't fab you would, you know, I don't think anybody in our industry sort of would dispute the fact that Fabula wood is sort of the top of the line of these inexpensive lines that they do. But that's sort of the gorilla in the room too, is that they have a really big footprint. They've exploded and growth and it's all because they do a good job. I don't think forever mark is that different? J and K are considered carrying ourselves, although we decided not to carry J and K A only because you only you don't want to carry too many brands that are all in the same price group. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Right. So I don't know that the difference in the tracks and the hinges and forever mark even though they're not Blum. I don't think that that's a big deal. But I think that might be a bigger deal is upgrading at door style that if it's really a rental property, do you want to spend 20% more on cabinets to be in a? And also you're going to go white, even though you have a painted cabinet, even though it's a rental property too, right?

Laura  5:32  
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that was true. As far as the actual doors, there's no, I think what I found with the savvy wood, it was almost going up like 30 to 40%. In similar, you know, you might have styles are the same.

Paul McAlary  5:49  
So you were pricing the door style, it was like a fusion door style that had a file on the outside and the outside. And it was

Laura  5:58  
more Yeah. And for basic kitchen, it was kind of like running around at 500 with Forever, forever, Mark, and it was about 12,000 With Saburo wood. And they were basically the same kitchen. You know, one was the fuse, I think dove fusion and the other one was crema. What was what I say? towneplace cream in forever, Mark. So what is it similar door style?

Paul McAlary  6:23  
Well, I mean, a lot of times with customers, we have a whole blog on this topic. But comparing cabinetry for customers is usually almost impossible, because they weren't really right to how different things are. So what's the forevermore? What was the name of it? I'm just going to look it up real fast. So

Laura  6:39  
okay, I'm looking at two one is towneplace crema. And the other one is called the town collection. Uptown white girl plays crema would be more of the off white or Dovey white or whatever you want to call and I'm Tom White is white.

Paul McAlary  6:58  
So I'm going to have the Forever Yeah, I'm gonna guess that and forevermore this is just a guess we're gonna look up in a second but that the reason that there's a 30% difference is the fabby wood door is solid wood and the forevermore may not be the forever mark may be an MDF door. So let me just see if we can fit Yeah, I

Laura  7:17  
think it is in the middle I think it is in the middle and and the forever when you went to Fabbi wood? I'm not sure he either if it is totally both of them say they're birch birch

Paul McAlary  7:30  
Okay, so fabuland is Bert doors birch and Fab you wood in the middle panel is MDF but that's actually a good thing with a painted cap right? We worry about

Laura  7:39  
right that's what I heard for stability. Yes. Yeah, we are so thin when you do that style. Yeah. Okay. So they both have from what I gather birch in them and they both have the MDF after getting that thinner more of the shaker style it pumps out different thing and then I think the J in cases there maple which was like Thomasville who knows you know, so there might be a little bit different than the door but you think the boxes and all the other things are pretty similar between these lines. I guess they're only as good as whoever put them together too though because you're buying them from down here I'm in the Washington I'm in Virginia and you're buying them from people that have teams that put them together because my installer does not want to put them together so you know how they come in flat panel boxes that kind of stuff.

Paul McAlary  8:28  
Yeah, so if the flat panel two we really would only order them already assembled the fab you would I'm sure it's coming you know Fabbi would only comes assembled already.

Laura  8:37  
Oh is that right? Okay, because I acted I guess I thought that they might be putting them together.

Paul McAlary  8:44  
Yeah, no one's putting them to the fab you wood comes assembled. They stopped selling them in flat facts. I don't know five years ago or something like that. Okay. But I'm just looking it doesn't really tell me see I since I don't carry them. I don't Yeah, really know that much about K series town collection. Shaker collection. So I don't

Laura  9:12  
rush. They come under the platinum. I think they come under what's called the platinum line both of those platinum line

Paul McAlary  9:21  
but if they're if they're burned went to the if they're if they are painted birch I think that that's that's good. So then that's definitely getting rental property you would don't want MDF you know the middle panel doesn't do anything. But the the outside frame of the cabinet door has the hinges in it. And that's what things hit. And so you want you want it to be a bird store or maple door. You don't want it to be an MDF door. Exactly the 30% differences just surprising. I wouldn't have thought that fab you would was that forevermore was that much less expensive than fab you would. But I don't know you know I don't know it I don't know the line that well. So I can't really, I can't really comment. But if it was 30%, and all things were equal, you know, that would be a reason to get forevermore.

Laura  10:10  
Yeah. And the other one, that same same neck of the woods is the k and j, which says that they are maple, but they have the same thing. They have the MD, whatever in the middle, if you're getting that kind of anchor look.

Paul McAlary  10:24  
I know j&k A little bit better than forevermore, because we thought about carrying them. And I know that that their Shaker Doors are painted doors are are white on the outside.

Laura  10:33  
Yeah. Now, and you like that line is, well, you've even good marks as well.

Paul McAlary  10:40  
The one thing that I worry about too, is right now there's a lot of backwards in these companies. Because the reason these companies are all less expensive, is that there are American companies but they're importing their doors, and the at least the front of their cabinets. And so that with the container issue and the you know, supply chain issues that are going on right now, some companies have a lot of back. So you order your kitchen, and then when the when the cabinets come, you know your end up being missing two or three or four cabinets that you have to wait another month for or something like that. So that can be problematic. how they're doing in fab, you would door you picked, you know, is 18% more than the Shaker Door than the Galaxy door. But yeah, fusion DOF doesn't have any back orders right now. So there's no fab you it has a couple of issues. But they're in more unusual finishes like Indigo, or horizon, or cobblestone or the three colors and fabulous wood that are having backordered issues right now. But generally Fabbi wood has actually done a better job with backorders than j and k. And forever mark for a while. Forever. Mark was not even able you couldn't you know forevermore couldn't even give you a date. You were gonna get your cabinets, not so many well, not so long ago, I'm sure that they've recovered from their issues, but they were backordered for months and months and months a while ago. You know, maybe it was maybe almost now, but can't tell you how they're doing. We would hope that the rep would be able to be honest and tell you. But you know what you can do is if you go on the website of a dealer, or look up the dealer's website, if people are not getting there forevermore, cabinets, they won't suffer silently. So you'll probably see some

Laura  12:41  
I appreciate that. Yeah, Paul, and one of the things that may have to do with the price is on what I'm hearing, when I just ran out there about some of these lines is that actually the forever mark has expanded and they have more options and say for I'm sorry, the fab you would have more stuff going on more options, more different things that may be forever marked does. So some people say that might be some some of their pricing differences too. There's a little bit more. I'm not saying I understand they're more standard boxes that they come in, you know the 3036 increments of three sometimes but I think forever mark doesn't have all the stuff that Fabbi would have and probably does have so far good reputation. I just didn't want to I was kind of a little leery about going down the path. But I'm thinking I'm getting more basic nothing like all that like you said you saw a fusion of versus the Christmasy whatever this out. The more white one was the town something white town, whether it was uptown, white, or towneplace crema, so they're both kind of similar in both lines. They're both Burke's they both have MDX in the middle. So we think the rest of it is probably still pretty similar. And I guess the great thing that

Paul McAlary  13:59  
as long as the door as as long as the door is is as the birch then I think you're okay

Laura  14:05  
the birch on their actual round it Yeah. It's not bad, but that might be a problem. Yeah. And worse come to worse. I suppose in life. You know, when you're coming down to these painted cabinets, if the doors get the most abuse, after a while, you could just replace the doors with the same manufacturer if they're still in business, right. You know, when we're talking about, well, how paint?

Paul McAlary  14:27  
Well, yeah, so so there's a whole industry that has been created of furniture or finishes touching up people's kitchens. So you can get a whole kitchen nicked and scratched and all kinds of damages and a furniture finisher will come in. We have ones around here that will charge you like for medium sized kitchen five or $600 to touch up the whole kitchen.

Laura  14:50  
Interesting, interesting. And the last question I'm going to ask is kind of sometimes people would you don't see a lot written about these lines because they haven't been out so so long. You know, as far as, you know, feedback, let's say from people writing, you know, back on whatever it is Google or, but I do every once in a while, see some people said, Yeah, I got these cabinets and across these brands, and they'll say others uneven paint, there's some stuff that doesn't look good here, this, that and the other. And I guess like anything, there's quality control, sometimes you'll see, you know, the cabinet's come together, and they don't look so good in some areas, that's just the luck of the draw of how something came out that, you know,

Paul McAlary  15:30  
no, it's not necessarily the luck of the draw, there's definitely you're going to have more that I would think Forever, forever, Mark has a less expensive brand. So the construction is going to be fine, the doors gonna hold up, I don't worry about their hinges and their tracks at all, even though they're not the same, because they do a really good job of copying, it's a knock off track and a knockoff hinge, I would bet you they last almost as long. Okay. But as far as the finish is concerned, definitely, the fabric would finish is just as good or just as nice as the expensive brands that we carry. So

Laura  16:06  
that would be a reason to maybe the actual finish might look a little nicer, stay a little nicer, a little longer. I don't know,

Paul McAlary  16:15  
that stay a little low. I think you don't have to it's not longevity. It's just the looks, yeah. But when a cabinet is a little bit less expensive, like we carry CNC. So CNC is our brand that we carry, that's like 20%, less than fabulous. So there's no question when I look at a CNC cabinet, especially if you got a stain cabinet that the stains are just, you know, they don't even really fill in or around the panel that well, you can tell there's less stain there. It looks like a less expensive thing. There's no question that forever mark is definitely a less expensive APNIC brand. So, but it's a rental property. So I don't think anybody puts your cabinets under a microscope on a rental property. So it's like, Yeah, ya know, when we sell sciency, like when we sell CNC cabinets, we tell customers, this is perfect for a rental property. It's durable, it's well made. And it's 20% less than fabulous. But if you get fabulous, then you can expect the finish to be as good as the expensive brands that we carry. But if we sell your CNC, I tell customers flat out, I don't want to come to your house and find 20 little pieces of blue tape all over your cabinets, where you think that the finish isn't quite as smooth as it should be. Or it looks not quite you know that you're not saving 20 You're saving, there's a reason you're saving 20% and still getting a really well made cat made cabinet. And the reason is that there's some kind of sacrifices that you're gonna have to make. And you're probably also just because it's a less expensive brand. And this is there's no guarantee for this at all. But just in generally, the less expensive the brand, the more likely you are to have some damages when you get delivered your cabinets delivered only because people aren't you know, rushing around more, maybe the drivers have an extra stop on their delivery route. Because it's all you know, it's when you get the less expensive lines. They're trying to keep everything less expensive. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you have to guarantee all their cabinets, so you just gonna have to wait for replacement. And then we're

Laura  18:25  
shot. Gotcha. Last thing. Yeah, I just want to throw out is that that other line that greens, whatever that is from GEICO green, something green for one called Green. Green farms are very kind of like in the same they would be in the forever mark kind of thing I would think about the team wouldn't just kind of there.

Paul McAlary  18:48  
Yeah, we actually carried them for a short period of time. The problem we had with them was that they didn't make the right height cap for us. So like how high are your ceilings? Do you know?

Laura  19:00  
That would be eight foot so I'm looking at we're gonna take down the soffit or the bulkhead as you call. So we will be getting the 42 inch so that

Paul McAlary  19:08  
would be a gigantic mistake. So that's one thing you don't want to do. You never want to really Yeah, that's that's a bad idea. Is it a condo?

Laura  19:18  
No, it's a house and the reason we were doing it's a house. It's colonial. So half the reason we were taking advantage there's not a lot of cabinet space and you want to get rid

Paul McAlary  19:26  
of them. But you don't want to get 42 inch cabinets first off that looks cheap, and it's not attractive because there's no moldings on top of the cabinets. But more than that, almost nobody's ceiling is perfectly level and so your cabinet has to go perfectly level so your cabinets are going to be installed perfectly level. If your ceiling was a half an inch off of level across the length of the cabinet run. Then your seat habits will be touching the ceiling in one part of the room and a half inch below the level of the ceiling. You know at the end of the cabinet Run. And not only would that look horrible, and you'd have this stupid gap, but it looks much nicer when there's moldings on top that reach the ceiling. So

Laura  20:09  
like the moles and yeah, that worked for 39 inch for me and yeah, in Ocean City, my beach property. I got 39 inch from Thomasville and then I have the molding up there and that worked great. So none of these super lines

Paul McAlary  20:24  
was a beach house brand new. No, it was all

Laura  20:27  
we took down old cabinets, we put the molding up. And then we had the 39 inch and it looks good. It gives it a much nicer look we we took down again in Ocean City, we took down the bulkhead as well, and their white cabinets, but they're 39. But unfortunately, I would have done that route and had the molding here in this house. But no, none of these cheaper lines have a 39 inch cabinet and 36 was just

Paul McAlary  20:54  
actually 36 flips the best of all, because you have a two piece stack molding that allows you to if you go on our website or go on our house page, every kitchen. If the ceiling is eight feet, good designers don't use 30 nights we use 30 Six's and a stack molding, when you use 39 You escaped, luckily, with without a problem, because you're molding is three inches high. And you have kind of have the same problem that you have with New Order 40 twos, that you have no play. So if your ceiling is it off at all off, you won't be able to install the cabinetry and habit all look right, that the molding will you know the cabinets have to go in level. It's how they're screwed to each other and the way they're assembled. So that if your ceiling is a half inch off, when you go to put your molding up, there'll be a half inch gap or three quarter inch gap. Your house in the shore must have been just luckily for you have been very level two.

Laura  21:53  
Yeah, because it does look good. Yeah, we did have the is the beach house does have the three, three and a half inch molding. And then it's and it's more of like a U shaped kind of kitchen, you know. And then we have the 39 inch cabinets. So what you're saying is right now I have bolt hole that's got to be at least 12 inches. So should I take it down and then create a new kind of bulkhead and then 30, crown molding and then 36

Paul McAlary  22:21  
No, you get 36 inch cabinets. And then you have a six inch riser that goes up to the ceiling, and it gets attached to a piece of wood that you put on the ceiling. And then you put crown molding over that, you have to go on our website. And if you look at any of the cabinets, we don't have one little piece of molding on top of the cabinets, it's almost always a two piece molding with his a riser, a flat piece, and then a crown molding over that. So that we have the ability to play and the molding can right up and down on the on the flat piece as it goes around the room. That's the way you don't have a crisis. However, if you really wanted to play with fire, green forest, that's why we stopped carrying green forests, because they didn't make a 36 inch cabinet. They only made a 39 inch cap. So if you really have to if you really had level ceilings, and I would put a laser level on it. Because if any of our designers designed to kitchen with a 39 inch cabinet, we wouldn't sell that kitchen until somebody went out to that house and put a laser level on the room to make sure that it wasn't going to you know, the customer would show us their house. Yeah, it's at a level we somebody would put the cabinets in, and all of a sudden it would look ridiculous. And the people would say, well, we don't want this, who's going to now take these cabinets down and give us something that works. We didn't carry greenforest Because most of the customers ceiling heights around here are a lot of them at least are eight feet high. And we needed them to carry 36 inch cabinets. So we had some play. So we could get a two piece crown molding to the ceiling. Other than that I love the cabinet brand. It's a good brand. But they made the mistake of thinking that you could put 10 pounds of sausage in a 10 pound wrap. And you can't you really do you really need a little bit of play. But if you look at greenforest They'll be very reasonable and you'll have 39 inch casts.

Laura  24:19  
This has really been so helpful, Paul, so I've got to go on your website to kind of get a better idea of what that 36 You know what it looks like and then when you said to stack and I'm trying I'm gonna try to visualize it because right now like right now we have 30 inch cabinets, you know, we have the bulk of 30 and 30 inch cabinets.

Paul McAlary  24:41  
So 36 is higher, and then you're gonna have a flat piece that usually goes over the front frame of the cabinet and then the same crown molding that you would have put up on top, but the pieces of molding definitely looks more proportional and then it looks better. It's like a 39 inch cabinet with three inches of molding on it to the ceiling doesn't even look as good as a 36 inch cabinet with a flat piece and then a crown molding on top of it. And you can see that it's a flat piece.

Laura  25:13  
Yeah, I'll go look so the flat piece is another piece of wood or is it? No, it's

Paul McAlary  25:19  
a flat piece of renovations. It's a flat piece of molding. A lot of times what we use is upside down baseboard. So we get a piece of baseboard, okay, wood that has the profile of the inside of your door, like your Fusion door profile. On the inside on top of the molding, we turn it upside down, and then put that baseboard over the front of the cabinet. And then it goes up towards almost the ceiling. And then the crown molding goes between the ceiling and that baseboard. If you look at an eight foot high ceiling or almost any time on our website or on our house page, if you see cabinets going to the ceiling. We won't it won't be one will be two.

Laura  26:01  
It's two pieces. Okay, I'm gonna look that up. This is so helpful, Paul. Oh, my gosh, I really appreciate you taking the time. We had a good chat. And again, I definitely I'll look up more on the website and see what I can see about that. But make sense. You're saying and just put thank you again. Appreciate it. Take care. Have a wonderful weekend greens. Yeah, yep, your

Paul McAlary  26:25  
ceiling is level. Ready. greenforest is the best. Please check. Because it most people seal Yeah. But if your ceiling really is level greenforest might be perfect. When

Laura  26:35  
that would take care of it. It would give it a nicer look because there is crown molding in the rest of the house the rest of the room which is quite open, you know. So I would like to do that. Yeah, that sounds fantastic. Great lead. Um, you are we were meant to chat. Thank you so

Paul McAlary  26:52  
much. Bye. Bye.

Mark Mitten  26:56  
Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai