Unknown Speaker  0:00  
Music.

Paul McAlary  0:06  
So thank you. It's nice to be here. I learned a little bit about the Rotary Club before I came. I was very surprised. I didn't, didn't know there were so many rotary clubs on the this area so close to each other. You know, it's obviously a wonderful organization with a noble mission. And, you know, I think that, really, I would hope that all organizations and all businesses and all professions would aspire to, you know, ethical standards. And, you know, at the least in the hyper the saying first do no harm. I mean, if you can't help, then at first, do no harm, as the Hippocratic Oath says. And unfortunately, in my world of kitchen design, that is something that's, I don't know if I'd say rarely, but very often not accomplished. And the reason that it's not accomplished is that for a number of reasons. Well, first, some of the reasons are, is the people that are designing a lot of kitchens are not kitchen design professionals. So they might be architects, or they might be interior designers. They might be contractors or house flippers or real estate agents, but they're not people that do it as a profession. They don't do it every day. They're not designing 50 or 100 kitchens a year. They don't work for a kitchen cabinet dealership. So you know, they're making mistakes because they don't know any better. And as the saying goes, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing in that respect, and then sometimes kitchen designers themselves can make mistakes because of ethics, because they put the sale of that kitchen ahead of trying to convince the customer to get a better design. But that brings me really to the topic of my conversation today, which I call murder by kitchen design.

So if you turn to the first slide, so we have a whole lot of kitchens here. This is the first one. And Can everybody hear me? So this first one, most of the pictures that you're going to see today are from kitchens that certainly are expensive. I mean, in this particular kitchen right here, you know that it's, that's a Wolf range, it's probably $14,000 now, these are custom cabinets. That's a sub zero refrigerator. I mean, it's a very, very expensive kitchen. And you can make a kitchen dangerous. We're going to see all these kitchens today that essentially could murder you. But you can make a kitchen dangerous from something as simple as putting the light switch in a place that's not intuitive to somebody enter the entering the room for the first time, you know, you buy a new home. You're excited. You come home, it's dark. For the first time, you have packages. You know, in your arms. You're coming in the garage door or the back door. You're opening the door if you're if your house has been designed correctly, the light switch, if the opening the door on the left, the light switch should be the your immediate right to turn on if it's not there. Now you're fumbling around looking for it. You step on a toy. You step on a dog dish. Next thing you know, you sprained your ankle, or worse, you fractured your skull or something. So having making kitchens dangerous is something that we see as kitchen designers. Literally every day, we have a podcast and a help line that I do on Fridays from two to four, where I take calls from around the country and review people's designs, and the vast majority of them have many, many mistakes, and at least 30 or 40% of them have the kind of mistakes that we're going to see here. So if you're looking at this kitchen, does anybody have any guesses? Yes, David arch is on either side, right next to the stove, or in prime territory. You know, I've given the speech a couple of times, and nobody has gotten that correct. That's true. Frisbee players are just naturally stellar. But yes, so the hood that's here, the columns that come down next to this stove, they're coming within a couple of inches of the stove. And that stove is a professional range, which means it's incredibly powerful. It's 16,000 BTUs of heat coming off those burners. If you put a spaghetti pot or a big pan down and it flattens out the flame that you know. Hope I get this backwards, so that column that's coming down here to and it's going to be so close to that flame, eventually it's going to dry out, and then it will become susceptible to igniting, and eventually, hopefully it's not, it's going to ignite when you're standing next to it, and not when you're upstairs, maybe taking a quick shower while the spaghetti pot is warming up. So you know, generally, whenever you see any of these kind of mistakes, there's even subliminal other mistakes that maybe aren't going to kill you, but. But you know, if you think about it, and you have these things coming down right next to your your your cooking surface, well, you've prevented a good place for cutting and chopping and working at the kitchen. So it's not really very functional. And if you don't kill yourself before, you'll have killed yourself, you'll probably have burned your hands a bunch of times because the handles of the pots and pans can't go out, you know, over the counter top. They have to go back over the burners when you're cooking, so if you want to flip it. So this is just another example of the same thing, and another example of a really poorly designed kitchen. This sort of stove area is all set off by itself. It's just a bad design in general. But, you know, it's also an incredibly expensive kitchen, so that that professional cooktop is $6,000 you have this fancy hood. These are all designs that are dangerous, but the people aren't, you know, they're not challenged financially. They have plenty of money when they're redoing the kitchen to do a good design, but for whatever reason, you know, possibly because it wasn't a kitchen designer doing it, they ended up with this, if you flip so this one as a kitchen designer, I can tell you that that had to have been designed by a kitchen designer, because that Custom hood with all of these corbels that are here, with the columns that come down with pull outs inside them, with the rope inlay that's here, with the custom glass doors that are above, you'd have to send that and do hand drawings to a custom cabinet company to have that made so somebody that was knowledgeable in kitchen design sold this to a customer, and it's Not quite as dangerous as the other ones we saw, because this cooktop that's here is not a professional, incredibly powerful cooktop, but it's definitely going to discolor these cabinets over time. So the designer that did this really knew better. But then, you know, this hood is $10,000 they took the customers money before they really protected them from, you know, having a kitchen that would go undamaged for a long period of time. So this is the just, this is the normal thing that you see in old fashioned kitchens. The need for someone to have two ovens and to have them stacked and use up that countertop space just forced everything close together and put the burners close to the side of the the ovens. Eventually, if you have that in your own house, or have had it in the past, it gets scorched over time. And if you know, maybe it doesn't start on fire, but you know, it ruins the side of the cabinet. So now we're going to move on to a new problem. Dave seems to be our expert. I'll give you a clue that it is not something front and center. It's a little bit farther back. But can anybody see what the problem with this kitchen is? Any guesses? Okay, move on. So the problem with this is that the range here is really right next to this window. So that's something that's against building code. But the reason that you're not supposed to be doing this is if this shade is drawn all the way down and you have a fire on the stove, it can jump to the ship to the blind. So these blinds look like they're very flammable, and suddenly your whole house is engulfed in a matter of moments. We actually at mainline kitchen design had a customer that was getting a new kitchen from us because their old kitchen was right next to the window. They had a fire. It didn't burn down the house, but it did $20,000 worth of damage, and when they came to us, they wanted exactly the same designed kitchen all over again. So you know, we told them we can't sell you something that's set your house on fire already, right? But, but, you know, it wasn't difficult moving everything's around to get it to be a good kitchen, and it became a much more attractive kitchen. It cost almost nothing to move things around. And you know, certainly, whenever you're spending all of this money redoing a kitchen. You know, you shouldn't end up with something that's dangerous. Next one. So, you know, this is a photo. A lot of these pictures come from the websites and the hows pages. I don't know if you've ever been on hows.com but the hows pages are professionals, and most of the time, thankfully, it's the really bad ones. Aren't kitchen designers. They're actually architects or interior designers that put these pictures up, you know, promoting themselves as knowing what they're doing. But if you're a real knowledgeable professional, you know, this isn't it. This is not getting you any any praise from us. So this is directly under the window. So if it was bad next to the window, under the window is far worse. And the reason it's so bad is there's blinds here. Again, when these blinds come down all the way, if you pull them all the way down because you wanted some privacy, and then you turn these this again, professional range on what. If you study science at all, is the air pressure in front of the area that's hot lowers, and then it pulls things towards it. And so the blinds actually get pulled right in front of the burners, and it will instantly set your, you know, your blinds on fire, where you to pull these blinds all the way down. And then there's other, you know, less likely scenarios that aren't that could possibly kill murder you as well. So if you open the window just a little bit, it could blow out the flame on your gas, on the gas, and then gas is accumulating in the room when you're out of it. And then who knows what happens if anything else you have a candle burning in the room, or who knows what else, it could be a terrible explosion, not to mention the fact that pretty much everybody's Windows nowadays are all insulated glass. So you know, if you have or a lot of people's windows are insulated glass. So there's one pane on the inside of your window, there's a pane on the outside of your window, and then there's either Sealed Air, dry air, or a neon or or argon gas in between. And what happens when you have a hot flame right next to the glass on the inside of the room, and either a very hot day outside, or also a very cold day outside, you end up breaking the seal quite often in the window, and then real air comes into that that space. And then if any of you have this, you'll know that your windows are all cloudy, that this condensation that's occurred on the inside of the window, and you can no longer see out. And if you get new windows, thinking that it's going to get better, it's going to happen again, because they did this. So if you so same thing from another person's website, another company promoting themselves is knowing what they're doing.

So it turns out, you know, if you're my wife, you know this because we watch TV together, and when movies come on or TV shows come on, I go crazy because all of the kitchens are terribly designed and have all of these problems all the time. So shows like Seinfeld and other shows. We see it on all of the shows. They're doing something that's going to kill their the kill the actors in the show, if they was a real kitchen. So this is a you have to go back in time, and some of us are old enough here, I think, to remember this show. It's one of the earliest sitcoms. It has a kit stove right under a window with curtains on it right close to the window. Does anybody recognize this kitchen from TV? No, close though. No this one. This is from, I Love Lucy. And if you go back, this was the second one. I sort of gave you a heart a trick, because if you go to, this is the original kitchen. This was the this. They remodeled the kitchen. The Ricardos remodeled their kitchen. They put the refrigerator here, made it a better kitchen, but they still kept the stove by itself underneath a window with curtains. So they still kept it dangerous. So go to the next one. So now we're we're going to go to another problem, although when we see one problem, we usually find many, because the person designing the kitchen, since they really didn't know the rules, they're likely to break more than one. So here again, we have the stove, again, really too close to the window. But there's another issue here that makes this area dangerous. Can anybody look at it and take a guess. It's hard if you're not a kitchen designer, but okay, well, that's a style issue. Go back. Oh no. Okay, then just go back to the there it is. So you have just this. This actually an inch and a half column. It's called a refrigerator return that's that's right next to the stove, but after that, it's open space. And so when we talked about having the cooking surfaces, you don't have the handles of the pans, you know, going back over the cooking surface. You naturally just turn them out. So when you turn the handles of the pans out here, it's into open space. And you know, kids can be playing and running around, and they could flip a hot pan of grease on themselves. You know, if you're walking there, if there's a doorway there, loose clothing can catch on fire because the flames are so close to you. So why don't you go to another one? I think we have another example of that. Here's a very expensive kitchen. You have to look all the way back here to see that. You know, there's a doorway, and it's right next to this same, I believe this is the Viking Range. So it's $13,000 not $14,000 but it's right next to the doorway where people are coming into the room. So, I mean, it's winter time. People wear scarves, have loose clothing. People have long hair. There's kids playing handles. The pots turned out, I mean, to spend this kitchen is, you know, who knows it's, you know? Now today, this might be a $80,000 well, maybe even more than that. The appliance package is probably $35,000 alone, but maybe $100,000 kitchen, and you. It's designed so that it's incredibly dangerous and sooner or later, is going to injure somebody. So this is pretty much the worst kitchen in the world. We have this on our website as an example sort of of what not to do. But it's got all the problems all crammed into one. It's got the curtains right next to the stove. It's got a doorway from the exterior of the house coming in with people bringing packages and loose closing coming right past the open flame again. It has a professional Viking Range that's $6,000 it has no countertop on either side of the range, in between the sink and the stove. It just these are custom cabinets, by the way. So even though this design looks horrible, the cabinets are incredibly expensive. So it just, you know, just what a waste of money. So, like I said before, many of the sitcoms that we see have this problem. The, you know, here the cooktops on this tiny, little island. It's right next to the refrigerator. So somebody that opens the refrigerator, that steps back, steps back into something that's cooking. Just to make matters worse, they do this on this on The Cosby Show. They did it, and they did it on the break. Now, the Partridge Family, sorry, they did it on the Partridge Family, where they put the phone right here so someone's talking on the phone, they can maybe lean backwards up against the island and set them, but ignite themselves from whichever cooking, but just, you know, the thought process, or the lack of the thought process going through these things, and how common they is, they are, excuse me, is sort of shocking. So Paul and Jamie from Mad About You, same thing stove on the end of a run. Ferris Bueller had the day off. Fortunately, he wasn't cooking. This is the floor plan for a house designed by a TV architect with you can see here the cooktop on the end of this peninsula, this island, with the family eating at this little table, where people can be leaning back right into the flames on the cooktop or the stove. Anybody recognize this floor plan from TV? Brady Bunch? Yes, it's the Brady Bunch. So there you go, Dave. Dave is a star.

So, and of course, Mike Brady is supposed to be an architect, so he's an architect. He's designing this house, and it's actually a real house. It really exists because somebody owns it now. I mean, it went for, like, I forget, a million dollars, or a million and a half dollars, something like that. So next. So this is a TV show that I used to like and watch a lot of this I found on the website of the TV show. This is the set diagram. So in the set diagram, there's actually cabinets on either side of the stove. There's still, it's still an ugly kitchen, and it still has a refrigerator that opens into a wall, so the freezer doesn't open all the way, and you can't get anything into the freezer. But when they actually made it into the real show, it's the House of Cards, they got rid of the cabinets, so there's no cabinets now on either side of the stove. And the President may be protected by Secret Service, but his real danger is in his own kitchen. So now we're going to move on to another issue. This is this is hard, so I don't think anybody is going to get this one, but this is a whole new nothing to do with Fire This Time. Does anybody have any idea of what's wrong with this space? Christian, isn't that? Um, cabinets blocking the window? Like just No, but it is the it is the cabinets. And that's certainly a bad idea. So usually, like we said, once you have a real bad problem, then the whole design has lots of problems in it. You know, I noticed this too. The handles on the cabinets all go in the wrong direction. These cabinets open, you know, from the side. But the designer put the handles here because they thought that was the TR it was unusual and made it sort of eclectic. But if you're trying to open the cabinets, it really doesn't work very well. It sort of hurts your wrist opening the cabinets. But what's dangerous here is that this cabinet here is extending out almost a foot past the end of this countertop that's there. So the person that's standing, standing at this, or sitting at this this stool, when they go to stand up, they're going to hit their shoulder on the cabinets that's above, and that's, that's the good scenario. The bad scenario is that they're tying their shoe there, and they're bending over, and then they're standing up from that position, and they'll go straight up, hit their head right on the corner of this cabinet, they'll fracture their skull. I know a contractor that actually did this installing a kitchen he installed a lot of contractors installed the wall cabinets first, because it's easy to work get them up before you put the base cabinets in. He wasn't paying attention. He stood up. He hit his head on a wall cabinet that wasn't protected with cabinets below. And he fractured his skull, damaged his optic nerve, and then has been blind since. So so it is a serious problem. So you can go on same thing here. Now you know this one I think actually isn't dangerous, because this little banquet here has cabinets that are coming over where somebody is going to be sitting, but in the act of sitting up, you're sort of moving forward as you're sitting. So if you really do the calculations, I don't think even there's a person that would be tall enough that could hit themselves on the top here. But the thing I guarantee you, is the designer that did this, none of those calculations were done, or they didn't figure any of that stuff out. They just put the cabinets where they thought. They put the handles on the cabinets Wrong again there, you know, once you see stuff that doesn't make sense, a lot of stuff doesn't make sense. Same thing here. Person, you know, look at, you know, I hadn't even noticed until I was preparing for this speech that all the handles on all these things are all wrong. So these people, just this designer, just stopped short of here. If they had just come down here, they would have had more counter up. They wouldn't have created this funny space, and it wouldn't have been dangerous. But, you know, that's how little they were thinking. This kitchen we should expect to murder somebody. I don't know if anybody watches or watch the old version of this show, but this is the kitchen from Dexter. Dexter is a mass murderer. I'm told that murders other mass murderers, so it's not surprising that his kitchen will murder you. And the way it will murder you is these cabinets actually are lower than the actual doorway, and then it's about six foot four By my calculation, somebody opening this cabinet, leaning down, stands up. If they're six foot five or above, they hit their head. This one is sort of not very intuitive, but whenever you have moldings on top of cabinets, this is called a coffered ceiling, but when you have moldings like this, you're supposed to close up in between the beams that are coming across, so that you can't create a place that's essentially going to be accumulating dust and dust mites and dead skin and who knows what else for the till The End of Time, because you can't really get in there to clean. And then if you're very susceptible to dust, to emphysema, allergies, you know, that can be very dangerous. And there's a lot of people, you know, I'm sure, if you're now looking around, seeing friends and family's kitchens, they might have just ended there molding two inches away from the ceiling, and it's been collecting dust there, you know, since whenever that kitchen was done, 30 sometimes, you know, years longer this, this is what's the newest problem on the horizon in kitchens. These are inset cabinets, where the cabinets, actually, the doors to the cabinets aren't on the outside of the cabinet. The doors are flush with the face of the cabinet. You can sort of see that, I think, in the picture, that these doors are just even with the face of the cabinet. So if you have the appliances, and you're putting them, the ovens in the in the cabinet, and you did it, normally, they'd be jutting out very far. But now what's popular and appliance companies show it. Because appliance companies aren't don't protect customers at all. They have a whole history of decades of, you know, doing things that can endanger people, but they show this. And as kitchen designers, we have to tell our customers, no all the time, you can't inset your ovens into these cabinets, because when the door is then flush with the cabinet, which means that the seal on the oven is set so that it's part of the way against the frame of the cabinet, and the rest of it, a little piece of it, is actually inside the Interior of the cabinet. So when that seal eventually goes, and all oven seals eventually fail, and or most of them certainly, and when the seal fails, then hot air will come right out, touch the sides of the cabinets, fill up the inside of the cabinet. And you know, these, these ovens nowadays, all have a self cleaning cycle that goes up to 750 degrees, so it's incredibly dangerous, and there are no building codes against it right now. And because customers that get very expensive custom insect cabinets want the look, they're being encouraged by appliance companies that show this on their displays. So you can go through this is, this is the old fashioned and the right way to do it, where the ovens are all mounted onto the front of the cabinet, but the door and everything project out past the face of the cabinet, so that the seal of the oven when it goes it might damage the doors over here, but it's not right again. Against the frame of the cabinet. And it's not inside, the inside the cavity of the cabinet. So, and then this is, this should have been first, because this was, this was the the appliance disaster that happened 10 years before now. So this was the the 2000 10s that when people all started getting these very, very powerful appliances. They they're, you know, they're professional appliances. They're not appliances that are made generally for people's homes initially. And so these very, very powerful appliances, you know, have these very powerful hoods that are on top of them. And these hoods, if you're getting a professional appliance and you go to the appliance store, they will recommend that you get a hood that's made for a restaurant, and they can be up to 1200 CFMs, that's cubic feet of air per minute that they're pumping out of a house. So what's bad about this is that if you're it's winter time in your home, and all the windows and the doors are closed and your hood is pumping 1200 CFMs cubic feet of air per minute out of your home, then where is it coming from? All my windows and doors are closed. How does all of this air 1200 cubic feet? That's about from where my wife Julie is across the room, all the way up to here. That much air out of your house every minute, right? Where does it come from? There's only one thing in your house that's open, and that's your chimney or the the ventilation for your hot water heater. So,

you know, you the federal government stepped in in the 2012 2013 I think it was around then, and they created building codes. People were getting sick in Jackson, Hole, Wyoming and other places where it was winter. People had very expensive kitchens. The carbon monoxide from the chimney and from the water heaters was being pulled almost instantly back into the basement. People's children were playing in the basements, and finished basements downstairs, and children were all getting sick, and family members were getting sick. So they created a, you know, a building code for it, no building code for the ovens, though, that we talked about a moment ago. So what's the world's worst kitchen that or the worst kitchen anybody saw her on TV? You can just go forward. That would be Alice cramden, who you know, poor Alice. Poor Alice has had lots of troubles. That was her sink, that was her stove, and then Alice had an ice box with a block of ice in it to keep her food cold. So go back to that one. So hopefully, after my speech, you don't have to be Lieutenant Columbo, right, to figure out if your kitchen is going to kill you. And you know, hopefully you can actually go back to just, hopefully, if you still go back one more, if you saw this kitchen, right? This is a kitchen in a log cabin with the stove right up against the wall. Hopefully you'd know that would be incredibly dangerous. Second one, hopefully you wouldn't do this at home right, put your cooktop right against with no protection, and then put your put your bench where your children are going to sit right next to it. So, so yeah, so we can, we can end there. Sure questions. Could you say something about induction stoves? So induction stoves work incredibly well. So the reason that everybody wants a gas stove is because it heats up really quickly. So if you turn on your electric spiral coil stove, it takes a really a long time for things to heat up. Chefs never want those kind of electric stoves, but they're happy with an induction stove because it heats up just as rapidly as a gas stove. And the only issue is that you have to get different pots and pans if you're using an induction stove. And then, you know, right now, our industry creates drama to try to sell things. So now the drama is that, and we know gas in your home and burning, you know, you're burning things that you're trying to capture, if you remember to turn on your hood, you're vacating any of the carbon monoxide and some of the other fumes that are given off when you operate a gas stove. But then we don't really know quite what an induction is going to do to your overtime. It's sort of like our cell phones that we have pressed again or against our ears all day. We don't really know what that magnetic, you know, field that's being created, what that's going to do to us over time? I suspect it's around even, but both things work really well. And so if I didn't have gas in my house, I certainly wouldn't add it to, you know, to get a great cooking surface, you could do that with an induction surface, any thoughts or ideas

Speaker 1  29:46  
about features to put into a kitchen for people who want to age in

Paul McAlary  29:51  
place. So if you want to age in place, you know, if you obey all the rules of kitchen design, you will almost. Automatically have created a kitchen that's pretty good for aging in place, because you'll be leaving lots of space so that people that are in walkers or wheelchairs will be able to navigate like once you make don't leave the correct amount of spaces around things, you're going to have all kinds of problems. But one thing you should definitely have for Aging in Place is places to sit that you can work at in the kitchen, so maybe a lower countertop, or even if you're sitting on stools, well well done stools, but a place that you can be cutting and chopping and doing the work without having to be standing up to do it. Yes, all the way in the back. Yeah. Excuse him, like a nice guy, well, cabinetry

Unknown Speaker  30:56  
in the galley

Paul McAlary  30:59  
kitchen. Well, I'm not as nice as you might think. So all the people that work for me, for example, I always describe them as nicer versions of me. They're less blunt. They you know, they say gently the things that I say, I do

Speaker 2  31:12  
have a question, sure, so you're considered designer for the kitchen.

Paul McAlary  31:15  
Yes, we design people's kitchens and we sell them with the

Unknown Speaker  31:20  
design so that the contractor can put it in,

Paul McAlary  31:22  
yes, and we help the contractor understand how to put it in. And we sell you the way we pay for ourselves, kitchen designers. We almost everywhere. We don't get paid for our time. We sell you the cabinets. That's how we make money. So you come to us, we design your kitchens. You buy the cabinets from you. We don't release and give you the plans generally, until you gave us a big deposit, because otherwise you could be running around town. You know, we're very reasonable for cabinetry. We worry about that less than some other companies. But, you know, you don't take all that work that was required to get the design and then just give it away. Follow the job through with the contractor. Yeah. So we follow, you know, if we are designing the kitchen, people are going to need your help the whole way through. So, you know, I was looking with Nancy, I was looking at you when I was talking about the ventilation, your, your, your, your hood is doesn't need us. It's a 400 cfm hood. So you don't have to worry.

Speaker 1  32:20  
How would one? What's the best way to find a common so

Paul McAlary  32:25  
the best way to find a good contractor, we actually do it. You could we do it for people. We do it for anywhere, like on my help line on Fridays from two to four. We'll give people advice from people that are our competitors. They can show us their designs, and we'll, you know, advise them when we we can't, we can't, we can't really advise them when they're local on a contractor. You know, that's, you know, because it's, you're too close to us for that. But what we can, how would I find you in the first, oh, us, name of our company's mainline kitchen design we, if you actually Google kitchen design, kitchen cabinets, if you're located in this area, we will come up on the first page of a Google search. So, so yeah, I think that actually for contractors and for kitchen design places, you know, Google's great. I mean, if people have bad experiences, they'll write bad reviews. In fact, if you go to our reviews, we have 4.9 on Google and 120 reviews. But if you look at the bad reviews that are on for our website, they're not people that actually bought kitchens from us. They're people that called us up and talked to me and I got them really mad because I told them something that they didn't want to hear and it made them incense them. So, but, yeah, so that's a good you know, when I go out to a restaurant, I do the same thing. I read the reviews, and then if the reviews, the people that are complaining, it gets 4.5 stars. But all the one star reviews are the place is too expensive, or the waiter took too long to get here. It's like, I can live with that if the food is good, that's what I'm looking for. So, you know, read the reviews. Yep. Is there

Speaker 1  34:02  
any kind of regulatory group that

Paul McAlary  34:09  
oversees not as much, very little. So there is now the federal government. Used to be called carb two compliance in California was the first state that put regulations out on how much off gassing and formaldehyde kitchens could give off. Now the federal government regulates it, but beyond the lowest standard possible, there are no other entities that regulate that and all these things that are dangerous. There's building codes, but a lot of times, the building inspectors aren't aware of them. Most of the worst ones, they are.

Speaker 2  34:47  
One last question. Sure got to drive a nail into a kitchen wall. What tool would you use?

Paul McAlary  34:52  
Because it's like a hammer. I would tell you that there's a tool that when I was a contractor a million years. Ago. It's a painters tool. It's called a five in one because it does five different things. And the all the the other workers that work with me would know that if I didn't have a hammer and there was something I needed to hit, I would pick up the first tool next to me and I might start hitting it. So one of the guys said all Paul's tools are five in ones. Oh, hammer, I'll say it correctly. Hammer, thank you. Okay, thank you. All right. Thank you so much. Okay, all right. You

Oh, sure, thank you. Thank.

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