Mark Mitten 0:05 Is your kitchen designer giving you a price, it's too good to be true. Are you being pressured to buy cabinets before you're ready by an impatient contractor? You better call Paul. Paul McAlary 0:16 And Linda, it's both. Good to talk to you. Linda 0:22 I'm sorry. You said this is Paul. And who else? Paul McAlary 0:25 No, just Paul. So you're just talking to me. I'm the I'm pretty much responsible for all the blogs that we write. And all the information on our website, it sounds like you've spent some time on it. Maybe? Linda 0:37 Yes, I have spent some time on your website. And I want to thank you for such an expansive list of just about everyone other than some local people who are not world worldwide. I guess they're just right down the local. Right in New Jersey. They weren't on your list, but I assume because they are a local cabinet maker? Paul McAlary 0:56 Oh, yeah. I mean, most of the major name brands, we re evaluate. And then you know, we can also look up local cabinets. And sometimes if their websites give details about how their cabinets are made, we can evaluate them for you. So we just need to look it up. So if we don't know about it, so but a lot of cabinet companies are uncomfortable telling you much about their cabinets. But if they do, website, we can look at it. Linda 1:26 To be quite honest, I think they were pretty transparent on their web. Paul McAlary 1:30 Oh, good. That's always a good sign. A lot of times, you don't give information if you have nothing to brag about. And if you do have good information to brag about, then you make yourself transparent, because it helps you. Linda 1:43 Okay, so let me start by saying I did not read your article I may have been I don't remember, if you gave the caveat about not going from place to place to place. Well, I've already went down that rabbit hole. So it's too late for that. And what I've been finding is obviously when you go to a different place, it's hardest to compare apples to apples, because everybody has different lines that there. But I have noticed that they all have like at least three different lines high low and medium. So I have noticed that. So what I have been doing is, as you have already alluded to is trying to figure out like, how do you make your cabinets like, is it the MDF particle boards that now I'm hearing the fancy word furniture board, I'm assuming the same thing, same thing. MDF, okay, so furniture void or the plywood boxes. So I've kind of gotten a little knowledge it but I'm still stuck as to how to make the best decision. Paul McAlary 2:40 You said you didn't read that article I wrote on comparing brands, right. So just to give you a condensed version of what's that's in that article, is part of the problem is that even when you talk about different brands, and how they're made and everything else, all of these brands have different upgrades and different door styles and finishes that dramatically affect how much they cost. So when you go from place to place to place, one of the problems is, sooner or later, you're going to walk into a place where the kitchen designer is going to sell you something that he's going to make a change, that's going to make the price way lower, and you're not going to understand the change that he made or she made. So for example, you could get standard overlay doors, which would be exactly the same looking doors as another cabinet door style. Only they'd be smaller, and the doors wouldn't cover the whole front of the cabinet, they would only cover a half inch more than opening to the front of the cabinet. And that makes the cabinets 20% less expensive. So you could you know you, you could so there's things like that, like the overlay of the door, how the cabinet drawer boxes made the tracks and the hinges that are being used, whether the door itself, the Cabinet could be all plywood construction. But if you're getting a painted door, a lot of companies would make the whole door out of MDF. And then I don't think it's a problem if the middle of the panels made a an MDF, but if the whole door is made out of MDF, that's about 25% less, and it actually looks better. But it's less durable. So there's so many. There's so many tricks. And then, you know, when the designer was doing the design, you go to the first place and they're getting all fancy and they're putting panels and door panels on the ends of the cabinets and they're including the moldings in the prices that you're getting. And then we're including the toe kicks maybe and the touch up kits and all these odds and ends and maybe even including sales tax and delivery in the price you get and then sooner or later you run into this one guy If that's going to change the whole design, make the doors smaller, do all of these things and he's going to give you pricing that doesn't include the moldings and doesn't include some of the other same stuff. And it's going to seem like a, it's going to seem like it's too good to be true. And it really is, because he's not really comparing the same thing. So that's just the article that you didn't read. That's just the whole thing is you have to be so much more careful that usually, if you find a really good cabinet place to be buying cabinets from then working within the different cabinet brands that that one dealer sells might be your best bet. But yeah, sometimes they don't carry the line that you really want. So you have to go someplace else. But you have to just be careful, because it's, it's so hard, you have to really almost be a kitchen designer to be able to figure out what your pricing. Linda 5:55 Got you. I got you. So I will ask some more questions. Paul McAlary 5:58 So fire away. So I just wanted to give you the background? No, Linda 6:02 I'm saying would appreciate that. So when I do speak to the next time I did I get a price, I need to ask that that price and food, the molding the token, and yeah, the different panels. So I so I had gotten a price on Brookhaven. And I do believe it does include all that, because the woman had showed me a panel that would cover the sided refrigerator. Yeah, and another panel that I wanted a panel over the only just the dishwasher. So I have a book paid in price. And I'll give you a my tiny bit of concern about Brookhaven, as I know is the lower price point of winmo. But I also know that they just went through a bit of a turmoil in their company. So I have a little concern about that. And that's one thing, Paul McAlary 6:45 and they also raise their prices 20%. So they're, so they're more expensive than they used to be. And we worry that they're, you know, they've had financial problems twice in the last five years. So we worry about that. And you're also in a very, Brookhaven is a pretty expensive cabinet brand. So Brookhaven is just as expensive as other custom cabinet brands would be. Linda 7:12 Right. And so my concern is, I mean, obviously I do like fancy and I do like I want but I want my cabinets to be not just well made, I want them to last, I do not plan on moving anytime soon. So I will be I will be the person enjoying my cabinet for at least 10 years. So let's do that. But I do want a good cabinet. But I will tell you that my my door chop my door style choice is the shaker style with a little bit of OG as they call it. Right. I learned that term recently. So I pulled it I like to say one bump or two bumps, but so I like a bevel shaker one bump or two bumps so and so my concern is am I looking at a two pricier doors for door salads? Very simple. Am I looking at a cabinet line that's too expensive for that door style and that I can obviously find something in a lower price point. Yeah, Paul McAlary 8:12 I mean, I would say yes, I mean, only book Well, here's the thing, there are going to be lots of brands that are going to have that doorstop, because that's about the second most popular door style that's out there. So that's not going to be a challenge finding a well made inexpensive cabinet brand that sells that door style. And nowadays, you can get very well made cabinetry inexpensively. Whereas in the past, if you were in an inexpensive cabinet brand, it also meant that the cabinets weren't well made. But even the least expensive brands that we sell our justice are constructed the same and use the same hinges and the same tracks as the custom cabinet brands that we sell. So you would could get in that would be almost half the price of Brookhaven and at least whatever, 40% less than Brookhaven and it would really be constructed the same as Brookhaven. But the the only thing is, I don't haven't seen your kitchen design. So Brookhaven is going to have the ability to do all kinds of different size cabinets and height cabinets that a less expensive brand is not going to have so I don't know if your needs to be an expensive brand or not. Linda 9:30 Well, let me just say this my ceiling height is only 92. Okay, so that I guess it's I'm told a little lower than the average ceiling height. So like Paul McAlary 9:44 here would be why this would be why you might want to be in an expensive cabinet brand. So the normal size for Kitchen Cabinets To Go to up to is 84 Nine In the 96, you have a 92 inch high ceiling, you can't get 90 inch cabinets. Because if you've got a 90 inch cabinet, and then you are going to have a molding on top of it. Your ceiling is not perfectly level nobody's ceiling anybody's house is perfectly level. And nobody's house that has a ceiling that's 92 inches is anything your house is at least 50 years old. If your ceiling 92 inches, so a house that's 50 something or 100 years old, your our ceilings, my house is 120 years old, my ceiling is way off a level. So if you put 90 inch if your cabinets went up to 90 inches, at some point in the room, the molding wouldn't be able to fit because you'd be too close to the ceiling. You might be touching the ceiling in one part of the room but not in another. So you have to either get regular height cabinets that will be at 84 inches. Or if you were in a cabinet brand like Brookhaven, you could get a cabinet that was a little bit taller, you could get like Nakoda 84, but go to 86 or 87 inches maybe and have bigger wall cabinets and taller pantry cabinets. Because it's almost a custom brand. But you know, it will be a huge price jump that you'll pay to do that. Right. Linda 11:28 I am recognizing that because the same person the same deal at that price. One deal and price Brookhaven and classmate for me and then another dealer. And then another deal of price cusing IDL versus Wellborn. Forestry Not, not the regular Wellborn. The not one brother, the other brother, Paul McAlary 11:52 right? Yeah. Oh, you know about the two brothers. Okay. Linda 11:55 Only, only cuz somebody mentioned it because I asked what was it? I asked this guy? What was the difference between Wellborn and Wellborn? Forestry. And he said, Well born or saber brothers? And they split? I guess? I don't know. So. So my only concerns about the well, it was now the wellborn proxy was considerably lower, probably by about eight grand, and then the accusing, but in the Paul McAlary 12:16 wellborn forest. You were getting this smaller size cabinets probably Linda 12:21 in my my hesitancy was. First of all, I did some review shopping on Wellborn forestry, and their reviews lately have been horrible. Now I don't know if that's just because 2020 COVID. And, you know, shoddy work and delivery. I was trying to sort of really try to parse out what people were saying what they had, what they weren't happy with a cabinet, or were they just unhappy with the delivery? And then so that's my concern with that, should I go with a Wellborn? Forestry, it would be considerably cheaper by by about eight grand. Paul McAlary 12:54 Let me ask you a question. You have printouts of the designs you're considering? Linda 12:59 Yes, because I had an architect do the whole thing because I'm pumping out and I'm going up. So my concern is I have a kitchen to do and to back home. So I need to be I need to be price conscious, conscious, cost conscious. Paul McAlary 13:12 So you know, if you want to be cost conscious, then it's going to be so much less expensive to get cabinets that are at four inches, and then just have bigger molding reaching the ceiling. And if you do that, then you can be in a whole lot of less expensive cabinet brands. In fact, I don't even think when you got pricing and KraftMaid I don't think grant KraftMaid will even do that height. So they'll only do the 84 inch was there a really a big difference in price between the KraftMaid and the Brookhaven Linda 13:43 Yeah. Are you am I allowed to say vices Oh, you don't want me to give Paul McAlary 13:49 me prices prices are okay. Linda 13:52 Oh okay. The crafts mate was about 16,000. In the end, the Brookhaven was 20 closer to 21,000. But a little bit more if I upgrade to the plywood boxes, I found that kind of odd that in such a high price range I gotta pay to upgrade to plywood boxes. Paul McAlary 14:14 Well the thing was, if that's what you're that's the way expensive brands work. So in an inexpensive brand, like the inexpensive brands we sell only common plywood but the expensive options come in anyway you want their custom cabinets, you can make the cabinet cheap, you can make the cabinet expensive, they'll do anything that you want. So that's another thing that that people do is they design a kitchen in an expensive brand, but then use particleboard sides and everything else to make it less expensive and make it seem like you're getting a good deal but you're not that you don't even have the same upgrades as the less expensive brand. So I thought Wellborn forest is almost or I think it comes automatically plywood sides. I'm not positive about that. But Yeah, I'm Linda 15:00 not I don't know that one. I tend to Unfortunately, I've been in cabinet heaven. So I feel like I know some stuff off the top my head, but not most. But to answer that question between Brookhaven plywood boxes versus cracks me in general, it's about a $6,900 difference. Paul McAlary 15:20 Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of money and craft made, you have to upgrade the plywood to, but you might have you're at a private dealer. So you might have been getting KraftMaid Vantage prices, and KraftMaid Vantage is KraftMaid. That comes with a whole bunch of pre selected upgrades. So it's all the upgrades that we would recommend plywood sides, so I've closed doors, so I've closed hinges. So I've closed tracks, all of those parts are part of KraftMaid Vantage. But if you're at a private dealer, that's what you probably want to be getting is KraftMaid Vantage. But again, you know, I don't know that any of these if you have to decide if you're going to get the if you're getting the 30 and try wall cabinets, like probably your architect designed it. Because architects don't even know the sizes that cabinets come in. So probably your architect designed it with 33 inch high wall cabinets or who knows what size wall cabinets he designed it in. But in the Brookhaven you would be able to do any size that he designed it in. But in craft unit or any of the other brands that aren't custom, you won't be able to do those different sizes. So I'm not sure I assume that the Brookhaven design might have been the other sizes, Linda 16:39 I can certainly ask that question. This has been very helpful for me in terms of trying to figure out which way to go. And I guess I have one other question. The question was about fab, you would with the last person that I went to mentioned fatty wood and how good they were. But then he also said that something akin to what you're saying that perhaps I couldn't get fabulous, because of the smaller box. So I'm not sure what he meant by that. He didn't say smaller boxes. I'm just thinking maybe that's what he meant, because you said it. Or maybe what he meant is the stock because the size. Paul McAlary 17:15 Yeah, so so you won't be able to get it in KraftMaid. In fact, you would end in wood mode far. And I mean, would it would note in wells, wells Wellborn. Forest, yes, in Wellborn forest, you won't be able to get that unusual height, top height cabinet. So if you when he was talking about fab, you would he probably meant that you if you really wanted 33 or 34 inch drywall cabinets and unusual height cabinets for your ceiling, that the way the architect has designed you wouldn't be able to ever do that. And fabulous, but not going to be able to do that and KraftMaid and you're not going to be able to do that. And Wellborn forest either. The only cabinet line that you could even do it in would be the Brookhaven we don't even know if that's how they designed your kitchen when they gave you a price. Because you probably want no attention to how high the cabinets were. Linda 18:11 No, no, I wasn't. But I did give everybody that has price for me. I did give them the copy of the plan. And so they have. So you know they have they have ceiling height on it. I don't know if they can do anything else with it. They definitely have ceiling height. Yeah, so they have the width. So Paul McAlary 18:31 they that can be that unusual height can be responsible for $10,000 in prices, just getting that very unusual height. So I mean, that brings me to the thing I was going to bring up, which is okay, everybody that calls us is so worried about the brand of the cabinet's and getting a good brand. But nobody's really worried about the design itself. And we one thing we know about architects, and all kitchen designers will tell you this, they are generally horrible designers. They're terrible kitchen designers, because that's not what they do for a living all day. They don't know what sizes, cabinets come in, they don't know that they just cost you $10,000 By making the cabinet sizes that that they designed the kitchen in so unusual when it could have saved you $10,000 Maybe for a whole kitchen by just making the size a little tiny bit different. And not only that, I don't even know the clearances that they're supposed to be leaving for appliances and for other things. When you Linda 19:35 think my architect was in I mean, obviously I'm gonna take up for him, but I also think that I also think that he was there in a unique position because they're not just an architect, they have a full design, they have designers, they have the architect they have you know, they have a team of people so Paul McAlary 19:54 you like to design and build. It's a design and build company, right? They would typically they'd be the company that we're talking about, that would do very well with building and not so good with designing kitchens. So that's what I'm bringing myself to is getting to is what I would think the best thing you could do is not call us to ask us questions, but bring show us your designs from your architect, so that we could take a look at them, and then tell you what problems we see if any, with the designs, and then how you could make the designs less expensive by being in different cabinet brands, or improve them by moving things around a little bit, or say, Oh, my goodness, these plans are perfect, which would be the most unlikely event. You know, I would think, because pretty much all day long. What we end up doing is fixing designs that we get from architects. But that being said, it doesn't mean that there's not great architects that do great kitchens. But a lot of times that people that if you're going to be a great kitchen designer, you have to really be selling cabinets, if you're not selling, then you don't really know how cabinets, what sizes they come in, and all this different stuff. So that's why design and build companies usually are good builders. But you really need to have a kitchen designer, fix their designs, or at least tweak them. Linda 21:18 Right. So I found like one critical question I should ask, at least the architect is, what was the height of my cabinets that when he did this rendition, like what height? Did he have the mat? Paul McAlary 21:29 Well, usually they give you elevations and stuff that tell you that, oh, well, they Linda 21:33 now you're asking me to read the actual plans and understand elevations. If you want to, Paul McAlary 21:38 you could send us I mean, that's what I would encourage you to do is to send us the drawings. So email the drawings to us the same things you've been given to the other kitchen designers, so we can give you our input, then I could be telling you much more when I'm looking at your plans. Linda 21:54 Right. Okay, that says I didn't when I leave a copy of something to the other cabinet, folks, I obviously only copy that one section of the kitchen area, I don't give them all the plans. So obviously, they're not seeing maybe elevations and stuff like that, I guess Paul McAlary 22:09 you can send that. Email us if you email us all the plans for the whole addition, that's given us lot, a ton of information that I can be looking at and absorb in a matter of a few minutes. The more information people give us, it only takes seconds for us to look at it, figure out the information that we really need to know, you know, if you do want to to this is going to be a two story addition, is there a master bath and a bedroom or something going on top of the back of the house or something? Linda 22:37 Yeah, pretty. I guess what's happening is taking some space from the backyard and bumping out the kitchen. And then above that space will be a bathroom that a new bathroom that didn't exist. Yeah. And then the then the other bathroom will now become the master bathroom. Paul McAlary 22:54 Okay, so yeah, so anyway, all the plans are good for us to see. So we just know what's happening. We can give you an input on it, we can say, Gee, look what they were doing this, if you just moved this doorway from here to here. You could you know how I was construction already started. And there were already framing? Linda 23:12 No, no, no, I haven't thought it yet. I'm waiting on a start date. Okay, Paul McAlary 23:17 so yeah, so you don't have at least the opportunity for us to see your plans, and possibly save you 10s of 1000s of dollars. So Endor catch mistakes for free. It doesn't cost anything. When people send us their designs. That's pretty much what we normally do on Fridays is people send us the plans. And then we catch all the mistakes and tell them, Oh gee, you gotta watch out for this, you have to do that you have to do this. And it's, it's usually what the phone calls are, you might want to get everything together and then email them to us next Friday, and then call in. And then I can critique them and go over them and we can discuss it and Linda 23:57 I don't I don't know if I have until next Friday. This contract is breathing down my neck about getting the cabinet ordered since the lead time is so long on different things. Although I thought my project will take quiet enough time that I will have the lead time but yeah, adding a little bit of Paul McAlary 24:14 I would tell you that all contractors are always telling you to order things. And first of you haven't even decided on a cabinet brand yet. So the Brookhaven might be 22 weeks, the KraftMaid might be 20. The Wellborn forest might be 14 weeks, and the Fabula wood is five weeks. Certainly if you're getting fabulous wood and your kitchen is going to be designed in fab you would you're going to be saving 60% or 50% on the cost of your cabinetry or something like that. You certainly are way way too early to be ordering any cabinets. So it really depends on the brand that you're ordering. And when it's all going to come but builders are always telling people to order instantly and then they Hold up the whole works constantly Linda 25:02 in cabinets in a box in the garage getting more. Paul McAlary 25:05 Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of you know, they're sitting in the garage, they're in storage with us. And we're charging customers for storage fees, because the garage doors aren't even on yet, so they can't be delivered to the house. So they're paying for storage fees for cabinets that every every builder I've ever met wanted to order all the cabinets yesterday, and every single one of them was never ready for the cabinets when they arrived, they haven't dug a foundation yet. They have building inspectors that have come and inspect the foundation, before they can even fill in around the sides before they can do the frame before they can do everything else, you got a long ways to go. And this is such an important decision that's going to be $10,000. In cabinetry one way or another, they got a lot of nerve, it means that they don't appreciate the difference in, you know how high the cabinets are going, or why you might want to be in a brand that came fast or long. It just shows the lack of knowledge about the cabinet industry rushing to tell you to order cabinets before they even know what brand you're in. Right. Right. And that's typical, but it's another reason why it's a good idea. So you can you know, I don't know how fast could you send us the designs, and then we'll be all set. And I'll send you a comments on the design. And then you can call again next Friday between two and four. And we can go over it over the over the phone. Linda 26:29 I certainly appreciate all of your time. No problem. When I hang up, I'm going to give give me about 10 minutes, and I'll email you the plan. Paul McAlary 26:41 All right. Sounds good. I'll take a look at them. If you get them to me in 10 minutes, I'll take a look at them. And I'll I'll get your I'll send you some notes right back probably before you can call it a day. Linda 26:51 Right. And and I guess obviously we're talking and I'm not someone that sold stuff on brands. But I need to know the price point. You know, because there's a lot of brands within one price point. But in I read enough about you know, the plywood versus the particle and all that other stuff in the room. Paul McAlary 27:10 I mean, we have, we have. I always use one example. We have a kitchen on our website that it says Villanova restored barn if you go on our website, that's a kitchen that's in a $3 million home probably or two and a half million dollar home. And it was restored stables in Villanova, a fancy very expensive place on the main line outside of Philadelphia. And that kitchen, and the butler's pantry are all designed in fabulous wood cabinets. And the reason that that's done in fabulou wood is the heights of the cabinets and everything that that customer needed. They were just getting a Shaker door style in white. And there was no reason for them to be spending a whole lot of money on other sizes and other door styles and finishes and everything else that they weren't taking advantage of. So nowadays, you can get inexpensive cabinetry that's better made than the Brookhaven if they're not upgrading if you don't upgrade the Brookhaven the plywood sides, then Fabula wood is certainly way better made than Brookhaven. So you have Linda 28:20 so why do why do the just real quickly, why do the kitchen design and as I had the cake D in the store that you go to? Why do the cavies always say no need to upgrade your aunt you're thinking of back in the 80s. And there's no need to upgrade apply with the furniture boy is great and 30 and you don't need to upgrade? Paul McAlary 28:43 Well that would be that would be because those kitchen designers. Unfortunately for kitchen designers, there's not a lot of us are very good at our job. And very few of us even know anything about engineering and other things. So the answer your question is they don't know what they're talking about. And they're probably better designers. But since they don't know anything about engineering or construction of cabinetry, they don't know any better, to be honest. And so they're just designing kitchens and nobody comes back to them 15 years later when they're working at a different company or the cabinets have fallen off the walls to tell them that their kitchens are all falling apart. But if you get cabinets made out of particle board, it's not really that important. For the bottom base cabinets or the tool pantry cabinets that are sitting on the ground those cabinets, they're sitting on the ground, they're probably not going to have a problem with falling apart or anything else. But the wall cabinets that are on the wall, the MDF and the particle board it first off is much heavier. And then the seams and the glue that's holding it all together is all particleboard glued together. That's not anywhere near as strong as plywood all group glued together. With hanging rails and other construction features, and then on top of that, if your cabinets are particleboard, that means that the sides of the cabinets aren't real wood, that the sides of the cabinets that are exposed are just either painted over MDF, in which case if that gets scratched, it's going to be ruined. And or it's plastic, just colored the same color as your cabinets, in which case that plastic is going to discolor because it's not real paint. So the kitchen designers that would not know that or say that just don't know what they're talking about to answer your question. Linda 30:39 Okay, that was helpful. Wow, so much. All righty. Yeah, pics, Paul McAlary 30:44 it's hard. You know, a lot of kitchen designers. You know, I own our company. And I'm picking the brands that we carry, and everything else and making all kinds of decisions that kick regular kitchen designers don't have to make. And then unfortunately, in this world, some people aren't very good at critiquing the information that they get. And so every kitchen cabinet dealer has the reps of that brand coming in to talk to the kitchen designers and tell them why their cabinets are the best made cabinets in the world. And every single rep for every single company, even the worst companies in the world will come in and tell you that their cabinets are the best made cabinets in the entire world. And they'll they'll give all kinds of reasoning and why you shouldn't be worried about this. And our engineers have tested this and all this other stuff. And it's really just a bunch of crap. And they're salespeople. That's why they're reps for the cabinet company. And the kitchen designers. If they don't know any better, they believe it'll Gotcha. That's why we critique the brands in general, we rate a lot of cabinet brands that we don't carry incredibly well. And Brookhaven certainly is a very well constructed line. And I think they're great. I do worry about their financial stability. But certainly I don't worry about the construction of the cabinets. If you upgrade to all the upgrades that you should to get a well made cabinet, then you'll have a very well constructed cabinet, but I certainly never would spend 80% more to get Brookhaven in order it and particle board. That would be sort of silly. You'd only be saving five or 10% on the cost of the cabinet. Why would you want to get the most expensive brand in the least well constructed cabinet? Linda 32:28 That makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yeah. Paul McAlary 32:33 Yeah. So send me the design and we'll take a look at it and see where we are. We are. Linda 32:37 Okay. Thank you so much. I appreciate Paul McAlary 32:43 it. We'll talk again or maybe Trump next Friday, and I'll take a look at your plans as soon as you send them. Linda 32:48 Okay, thanks. All right. Thanks. All right. Bye. Bye. Mark Mitten 32:51 Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul Macelleria. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai