Mark Mitten 0:02 Does your current kitchen design have a bunch of angled cabinets wasting space, like it was designed by an architect who time traveled from the 60s and possibly was experimenting with hallucinogens. You'd better call Paul you. Paul McAlary 0:32 Hi, Dave, can you hear me? I can welcome to better call Paul. I've got your plans in front of me to catch people up, I sent you a plan. That's just one possible way to do the plan. The length of the walls that you have in each direction are not quite even, so the island works a little bit better along the long way, but you could also turn that around. But why don't we talk about your initial plan and what the issues are with that plan, okay, but very 1970s Paul McAlary 1:09 kind of design that architects did before kitchen designers were more common, the more common people doing the design and more and people that just sold cabinets, and so over time, would get much better at it, and then often were trained a great deal more than an architect was. And so some of the things that we just would never do, because we sort of know better, is you don't really want to put your double oven cabinets in the corner. Things in the corner, really eat up a gigantic amount of space, and they also make it so that things are opening up in the wrong direction. So if we're talking about your ovens, they eat up more than, or at least, 48 inches along each back wall. So even though the oven itself is only 33 inches wide, or the oven cabinet is only 33 inches wide when you pull it out a little bit so that the countertops die into each side and then you square it off, you've just lost four foot run by a four foot run of cabinets and countertop, whereas if you put it along a wall and not in the corner, you would have lost 33 inches by 224, inches. So the difference in space is gigantic. In fact, it's the biggest space you have in the kitchen. So generally, we don't want to put anything that's deep and tall in a corner and then the couple of that debate that gets you, is it inefficient because you're losing volume, right? Well, it's not only inefficient, but it just wouldn't go through all the problems that it creates. But like even the countertop that you have to the left of your ovens, that countertop, when you open your refrigerator door, that's covered, it's got an oven cabinet touching your one elbow on the left, and a refrigerator touching your elbow on right, and it can't be used once anybody's at your refrigerator in the present design. So I mean, that can be fixed by moving the refrigerator down in the present design, but it's still going to be between tall cabinets, and so that countertop that's there is very unusable, because you just have tall things that your elbows are bumping up against. So in general, we don't try to create spaces that are difficult to work at. Paul McAlary 3:31 Besides being wasteful, it has a lot of other issues. It's a lot of dead space. So there's two giant triangles and another triangle in back of the oven cabinet, all that are just dead. Paul McAlary 3:44 You're making your room smaller, getting less cabinets, getting less countertop and everything is opening in the wrong direction. Same thing with your sink, when you put the sink where it is in the design. Now, when you're standing at the sink and you pull the dishwasher down, you know it now, but it's pulling down sort of diagonally into you. You have enough room that you can get it down, because you have a big sink cabinet and probably have some fillers, but you're creating more dead space every time you make an angle with cabinets that are square, and then the dishwasher is not opening in the right direction, if your trash can pull out, doing the same thing where you have your dishwasher down in the trash can pull out, you've pretty much almost trapped yourself at your sink. It's not functional or a good use of space. And on top of that, I guess maybe I didn't really look closely at your countertop in your kitchen. But what is it now? Is it the original countertop? What Dave 4:44 do you mean the size of Paul McAlary 4:45 the countertop on your island? Right now? Dave 4:48 So, right now. So the countertop in this little cat image is 42 inches deep, I guess is that the correct thing? Paul McAlary 4:55 It's actually 90 inches deep. It can't be one slab of stone. One or quartz. If you want it to be a continuous countertop, you're going to have to have a seam, maybe in the middle where the sink is, because it's a slab of quartz or granite, pretty much comes 60 inches by 120 there's some oversized slabs, but your top is actually going 90 inches by 90 inches with a huge part of the back cut off and a huge part of the front taken out of it. But it's eating up a complete slab, and it can't even cover it without using up two slabs. Sure, in the past, you might have used the cotton mccorian countertop where the tops would be melted together and sanded smooth. But nowadays, if you're getting quartz, or you're getting any kind of natural stone, you're just going to have a seam in your top, which would also be undesirable. Dave 5:51 So can you help me with the pricing on a quartz countertop? If $100 per square foot, just making up that number, do you pay for the waste? Or what the okay Paul McAlary 6:03 waste, although, when you make it two tops, because you're going to have a seam, there'll be less waste. You'll still have a lot of waste, but there'll be less waste because you'll have this seam. So if you put the seam in the middle of the sink, then you're going to still use two slabs, but you'll be just using less waste. But whatever the waste is, whenever you do this, you're always paying for the waste. Dave 6:28 Yeah, one thing that we had seen, because right now, the width of the the island is 42 inches in this picture, and the width of our current Island is 42 inches, but it's two levels. So, so you have, like, roughly, I don't know, 3024, inches, whatever the depth is of a base cabinet. Then you have a step and then you have like, a 15 inch thing that's maybe a foot taller. Paul McAlary 6:54 Yeah, it's much better. So, Dave 6:57 yeah, I agree with that. And so we have noticed that it seems like everyone, when you're working in that kitchen, everyone wants to stand right where that 18 inch wide trash rollout is. So there's a bottleneck there. And we can certainly see that the dishwasher kind of, when you open that, you're kind of, I'll say, whatever, in jail, if you will, by the dishwasher that kind of opening up, Rita 7:21 not Paul McAlary 7:21 only that, but it's Dave 7:22 a tail. Paul McAlary 7:23 You won't really realize, if they have a good kitchen, they won't realize the difference until they're comparing the two. But generally, customers and people, they acclimate to whatever they have, and they think it's fine, unless they go from something that worked well to something that doesn't work very well, then they'll notice the difference. But just in general, like all of these things, are just creating spaces that aren't great to work at. So if you're at your stove and you're cutting and shopping, it's pretty good in a way. That design is that You sent Me, you have 30 and 33 inches of countertop on both sides, which is not bad in the design I sent you, though you've got seven feet a countertop in one direction, and another six feet or more a countertop in the other direction, and 30 inches or 33 inches on the right side, so you have just an expanse of countertop that you could be rolling pizza dough out on or doing anything else you Want. And also this kitchen that you sent me. There's nothing in the picture, but people usually have things on their countertops. You don't want your toaster oven, you don't want your microwave, you don't want your blender, you don't want anything that you have on your countertops. You don't want them on the island. So I guess in your design that you sent me, since it's already a crummy countertop and doesn't really work. You put your toaster oven, if you had one, in between the double ovens and the refrigerator, and if you had something else that you wanted to put on the countertop, whether that be a coffee maker or something else, there's no place for that to go but over by the stove. So when you limit yourself to these back countertops as much as you had and this design itself, if you just get rid of the ovens and keep your design the way you have it, you could just put your ovens where your refrigerator is, and get rid of one of your pantry cabinets and put your oven cabinet where the refrigerator is because you want your oven on the inside and your refrigerator on the outside, and put the refrigerator on the outside after the oven, and then that would give you a whole bunch of countertop and a lazy susan in the corner, and more wall cabinets and everything else, and it would be the same design as this, Just a lot better eliminating that one bad thing? Dave 9:43 Yeah, so, so can you comment on, on whether or not because one of the one of the design constraints we grappled with was whether or not you could put a double oven next, directly next to a fridge. Is that a no no, Paul McAlary 9:57 no, the only thing that's no no about. Is that it doesn't look quite as good. This is good that you're an engineer, so you'll understand this. So you know, if your ovens are next to your refrigerator, if people are worrying about heat, then they're worried that when you're using your ovens, which is, how often are you using it? Let's say you're the biggest cook in the United States, and you use your ovens on an average of one hour a day, right? Yeah, one hour a day. What's the temperature on the outside of that oven? I would think it's not scalding. It's inside a cabinet on the outside of the oven. Maybe it's 90 degrees, if it's if it is that. And then you could be living down south, and it might be the ambient temperature outside might be 90 degrees, and you didn't turn on your air conditioning all day long. So the amount of energy and the amount of issues that arise from an oven and a refrigerator next to each other are so minute compared to whether or not you're turning on your air conditioning or your heating or anything else as to be almost non existent. If you really were to do all the calculations involved with it, it would be silly, right? It's just that ambient temperature that's rising the refrigerator itself makes the temperature around it, when you cover it with cabinets, higher than room temperature in itself, because it's heating up a little bit and it's creating a little bit of heat. The refrigerator is made to be around a little bit of heat because it's enclosed. And then this is not an issue. However, having two appliances next to each other doesn't look as good. So if you separated them in some way by having maybe a narrow pantry between the two people's inclination is to put the refrigerator and the stove and the sink all really close to them, but really what we want to do is spread them out. So we're giving each person working at each workstation the maximum amount of space, usually, and then also the thing that you want out of the triangle that you're creating is the refrigerator, because you're using it when you're working in the kitchen, but everybody else and their brother is going to the refrigerator to get things while somebody's cooking. So if you have kids, you don't maybe have kids, because I know you're retired, but you have anybody visiting, people are going to the refrigerator back and forth all day long. And then when you bring the refrigerator into your work triangle, the closer it's getting to your work triangle, the more crowded you're making your work area. Whereas if you just have to take one more step to get to your refrigerator, you can just take everything out that you want, dump it on your island, and then close the doors. And then other people could be going to it and getting things out. So generally, we try to keep the refrigerator on the outside. So people going from the table, for instance, to get a glass of wine, to get a glass of milk, can go to the refrigerator get something, not be forced to come all the way into the kitchen, not be forced to be interrupting those people. Because the other good thing is, when the refrigerator is on the end, then it's enclosed with pantries maybe, and the doors to the refrigerator aren't opening as they are here across the countertop that you have. So we want the refrigerator doors not to be ruining the countertop and making it unusable. If you did put your ovens where your refrigerator is, and put your refrigerator on the end and put a pantry in between the two. Now you've got the perfect world, and you could even make the ovens a little bit closer in if you got rid of your oven cabinet in the corner, and make the pantry a little bit bigger, but keep the refrigerator on the end. So it's all working whether or not you do your design or my design? Dave 13:43 Okay, yeah. So another thing that, and I don't know whether or not it did, is just the flaw in the in the CAD but these are pantry on the right. There seems to be two pantries. We actually have an angled wall so, so that that pantry is really, it's almost like it's a cabinet front versus so it's like a partial, like, it's like a 45 degree angle, so that that entire 24 inches isn't really usable for an appliance. But yeah, we can certainly try to move things around to make have it make sense. Paul McAlary 14:16 If that pantry is not really useful because the wall is angled, then maybe that's a case to do my version of my kitchen, however, but twirl the island so that my square island now faces out towards the windows that you want, and then we actually move the range to the wall that I have the refrigerator on, and put first the pantry cabinet, and then maybe the oven cabinet or the pantry cabinet, and then the refrigerator, and then put the oven cabinet on the end where the refrigerator is, and then your cooktop goes on the other wall. So I could redo that design with it oriented in the other direction. And. And if I remember correctly, from the picture that you sent, even though the length of the wall, and this is all approximation, because I don't have any dimensions, but just extrapolating from I know what the size of the cabinets that you gave me are, and I know how much space that corner oven cabinet eats up. You're going to have at least 150 inches on one length of wall and 167 on the other. So even though the one wall 70 inches more the 150 inch wall, you're going into a doorway. So if your island came a little bit farther down, or if you were sitting out into that walkway, that wouldn't be a crisis. And you could even sit on two sides of your island and not on one side of your island, if we change the orientation of it, and then your sink will be facing out towards your table, so you can have conversations more easily with people sitting at the back of the island and sitting at the table. And that's even a more traditional kind of layout, even though the length isn't exactly the same. As you said, that length isn't really all wool because it's at an angle, Dave 16:11 yeah. So one of the things that I playing around with it, I was on cabinets.com and just playing around with their CAD software. And I don't really know the software if I was struggling, but I had, I had kind of drawn up a before we went to a a professional, quote, unquote, professional kitchen designer. I had played around with a rectangular Island, and I had it one way I had it the other way. At one point I had it canted at an angle, kind of like, is that Paul McAlary 16:40 sense? Dave 16:41 I think, Paul McAlary 16:42 yeah, in space that you can have an island, there's going to be a rule. We don't want to get any closer to your countertops, cabinets and appliances that are on the outside wall than a certain distance. So if I make little dotted lines at that distance, and then I know I don't want to go past a certain distance because I'm getting too close to the table. And I know I don't want to go past a certain distance because I'm going into your walkway. The space for the island that's created is a rectangle, and that's the largest island you can ever possibly have. When you make things angled, all that happens is you get a smaller island, because the maximum size of the island is determined by the spaces that you need to leave. You're actually making things tight because you're leaving 42 inches of space instead of I'm leaving 48 inches of space. So you're making things tighter than I was making because it's that one pinch point, but then you're leaving a gigantic area in the middle. But anytime you make that island an angle, it's automatically going to not be as effective or efficient. Dave 17:51 I'm going to say, could you? Could you go through your little sketch with the the annotations i i looked at it briefly, but some of the terms, the the initials, I'm not sure. So like Pete, the Paul McAlary 18:04 pantry cabinet. Dave 18:05 Hey, what did Pete, right? We Paul McAlary 18:07 couldn't have a pantry cabinet there in my design, because I've got the oven cabinet on the end by the range, right? But that oven cabinet isn't going to fit because that wall is angled. Dave 18:16 He took the angle. That's right. Paul McAlary 18:18 If you wanted to keep my design the way it was, I would take the PC pantry cabinet, that's a 30 and I would slide it down all the way to the right, and then I would make that the oven cabinet. And then I would put a pantry cabinet in between the refrigerator and the oven, so that my oven cabinet was on the end when I took something out of the oven, I could put it right onto the range. And then the range would have the same amount, eight feet by seven feet, or whatever, of countertop on its left. And then 3033 36 depending on how you did it, countertop on the right of the range. So the range is going to have all of this countertop to work at. And then you'd still, if you kept the kitchen the way I have it, the sink would be opposed to the range, and you'd have 48 inches so that people could be standing at the sink and working at the range and not interfering with each other, Dave 19:12 okay, Paul McAlary 19:13 and you're still, in my design, still well away from going into that walkway that's to the left of the refrigerator. So you could twirl this island, and once you move the range from the one wall to the other, we can do that, or I can send you that, and you can see what you think about that. That will be a very similar design to this, just having everything flipped, especially when we account for the angled wall, and because now the range will be on the other wall, then you can actually get closer. You can even be closer than 42 inches between the island and the countertop that's over by by that extra countertop. And the reason that you can be even closer than 42 Is that end of the island no one is ever going to work at, right? It's just a walkway. So if you made it, I don't know whatever you want, nothing opens in that direction, or very little opens except the stuff that's on the wall. And you could make it 42 if you want it, you can make it 39 and it wouldn't bother me. But you could make it tighter than 42 and it wouldn't be a big deal, because it's only a walkway, Dave 20:25 but you're on the 167 inch length, right? Well, if I move Paul McAlary 20:30 the range to the 150 inch length, right, Dave 20:33 yeah, and Paul McAlary 20:34 then twirl things around, but then if I do that and put the range on the 150 inch length, then I'd have to play around with it to see where the oven cabinet goes. We don't want to bring the refrigerator too far. It works better this way. If we move the oven cabinet to keep it on the same side. You know, it's also generally good to keep all the tall things together, the angle wall cabinet. We're hiding it by having a tall cabinet, but the other tall stuff is sort of together, but I can play around with it, or you could play around with it too. In the kitchen designer, once you get a kitchen designer that's got the measurements and everything else, they can be moving stuff around pretty freely and making sure that when they do it, once they have the actual measurements on each leg of these things, with the angle and everything else, it will be more apparent what the issues are. Now, when you're at your sink with a rectangular Island, your dishwasher pulls down the way it's supposed to, straight down on your left, your double trash can, pull out, pulls out on your right. You can switch those two things if you like. Have the trash can on the outside towards the table, dishwasher on the other side, but things are opening in the right direction for someone that's at the sink and no space is dead. Dave 21:55 What did a DB stand for? Paul McAlary 21:57 DB? Draw a base. But you can switch the dishwasher to the other side. The TB on the end is a tray base for maybe cookie sheets and trays cutting boards. Who knows? It's a little bit narrower than is good for a regular cabinet with drawers. But also, I don't really have the exact dimensions how close I'm getting to your table, so I don't even know if there's more room to expand. Maybe I don't know how far you could go before you get too close to your table. We're sort of staying in the same kind of envelope that your present kitchen is in. But what if you wanted to just end the countertop a little bit shorter and then have not just seating for four across the back, but seating for two on the side. Now it's much more social. People can be facing each other at the island, and you really haven't given up hardly any cabinetry, and you have a ton more cabinetry than you had before, anyway, and more countertop. Dave 22:54 Yeah. So hey, Paul, I want to give you a heads up. My wife, Rita, just walked in, so she's been dealing with something else the last hour, for she hasn't been previewed. Anything you've been saying? Rita 23:03 Well, I caught up quickly. I can see the layout, and thank you. I'm actually, I grew up in Horsham. So funny how we found you, and you're my old stomping grounds. But yeah, I'm just digesting this. And obviously it's difficult. We were heading Paul McAlary 23:21 Yeah, the biggest takeaway Rita is that tall, the tall, angled oven cabinet that's in your corner is killing a huge percentage of countertop and cabinetry space that you have, even though the oven cabinet is only 33 inches wide. If you do the geometry, you'll find that it's over 48 inches in each direction that you're killing and then there's a huge triangle of dead space on the left of the oven cabinet, on the right of the oven cabinet, as you square it off and in back of the oven that's something that you don't normally do. It's something that architects did in the 70s or maybe 80s, but it's not something kitchen designers would do, because, well, we also get paid when you buy cabinetry, and then you're going to get a whole lot less cabinetry and countertop from us, because you're just killing so much space. But more importantly, every time something's at an angle, nothing is opening correctly. Everything is opening into you and into the things that are around it. Same thing with the sink and that configuration for the sink, it's not something a kitchen designer generally would do nowadays, because it's two slabs of quartz or two slabs of granite, because it uses up over 90 inches by over 90 inches in two different directions, and then you're hardly getting any cabinetry in that all, because every time you have something at an angle, you have to have a filler at the end of it to create space so that the doors and the drawer. Floors and everything can open without binding on the things that are next to them, Rita 25:05 right? Yeah. So the other challenge, which you probably didn't get to, is flooring. And by doing a single Island, we would end up our tile is extinct. So I'm not sure what the impact to the floor would be. Paul McAlary 25:20 I would tell you that in general, that's why kitchen design professionals help customers, because it's not intuitive what things cost and what is a good investment and what is a bad investment. So I can't have to look at the picture of your tile. But for example, we have seven different brands of cabinets that we carry. So Dave 25:44 if you Paul McAlary 25:45 pick the least expensive brand to the most expensive brand, the least expensive brand, the average kitchen might be $12,000 and then in an expensive brand, it might be $60,000 but the cabinets aren't going to last any longer from one brand to the other. They're going to all have the same solid wood, Dovetail drawers, soft close hinges, soft close tracks. So splurging to get a color, or splurging on more expensive cabinetry or more expensive appliances, or not moving the location of things all because you want to save money is not generally a good idea, right? The it's better to save money on the stuff that you're buying and get the best design possible. Locking yourself into a design that's been outdated for 30 years to save on your flooring might save you maybe a little bit of money, maybe none, because you just could have picked a cabinet line that accomplished what you wanted, that was less expensive. So maybe it would have saved you no money, but it would have hurt the value of your house significantly. So generally, what we do is we price out somebody's kitchen with everything, with the flooring. We don't sell flooring, but we know how much it costs, so we price out somebody's kitchen with the flooring and the countertops and the appliances and everything that they're picking and generally, we can have a customer's kitchen cost way less, and yet they could get new flooring out of Dave 27:17 it. So Paul, when I said to you earlier, was downstairs, we had, we had a flooring guy showing up to measure. And when I went down, before we started this call, I kind of got the sense of what was going on downstairs. Do you have any sense for, like, the cost for flooring? Because one of the things that she heard from the guy that was here, and who knows if the guy just looked at the size of her house and said, Oh, I can double the cost. But he said, to remove the tile floor that we have, we have 20 inch by 20 inch tile would be $12 per square foot. Does that seem high? Paul McAlary 27:52 That's silly. That's ridiculous. So because I thought Dave 27:55 it was, I thought it was 25% that, Paul McAlary 27:58 oh, maybe at most the demolition is free, almost it's not free, but they're going to have to pay for a dumpster right when they redo your kitchen. Yeah, so there's going to be a dumpster outside. So now the question is, is, how long does it take them to get the tile up? Is this original to that when the house was built Dave 28:18 it? Yeah, it's about 20 years old. So Paul McAlary 28:21 it's 20 years old. 20 years ago. Nobody did things right? So I'm sure you don't have a mud bed probably underneath this tile. It's probably over what, either Hardy backer board or wonder board. So Dave 28:36 yeah, Paul McAlary 28:37 that being the case, you have a dumpster out in front of your house, the demo guys are going to come the entire floor, and all the tile will be up before they have lunch. Or if you figure out all this number of square foot that you have, you know how many square feet we're talking about, Dave 28:54 it's 800 ish, Paul McAlary 28:57 so this flooring goes throughout your whole first floor, Dave 29:00 yeah, but pretty much, there's a family room and a little breakfast nook, and that floor is not only in the kitchen, but also in those two rooms. So we would replace the whole, you know, whole shoot and match with if Paul McAlary 29:10 you're really going to replace the flooring, then it doesn't matter what the design of the kitchen is, right? The kitchen cabinets are going to have to come up for you to take out. Dave 29:18 Well, yeah, but right now, right now the kitchen that the tile is functional. It may not be what we like and so, but right now, if we replicate the current design, albeit with the problems you've mentioned, I know I'm not I'm not ignoring you. There's the potential that you can avoid the replacing the floor. And frankly, I get scared at spending $10,000 just to pull up the existing floor, Paul McAlary 29:42 you haven't picked out floor tile yet, but let's say you picked out really a pretty expensive floor tile, and it was $10 a square foot, and then the installation of the tile with the demo would certainly be less than that. Let's say you did eight and eight. Feet, so that's $16 a square foot. So that's 12 grand for your whole first floor. But Dave 30:08 yeah, Paul McAlary 30:08 saving this tile and saving the footprint, the value of your house, I don't know as outdated as this design is now. 20 years from now, it's going to be a dinosaur. I'd rather save $12,000 and not only that, I haven't looked at me. Look at your picture actually, of what Rita 30:29 see the Paul McAlary 30:30 tile looks like, right? So we can sort of see if, let's say it's Rita 30:35 pink, or they've been milk here and window, did you send that? Yeah? Oh, you did send that. Yeah. Paul McAlary 30:42 So this flooring is definitely not that bad. However, the one thing it does is it locks you into colors that are no longer popular for cabinetry and other things a little bit, right? So it's a nice tile. You could easily have not had this tile. You could have just as easily had some kind of pink octagon, pinkish. It could have been a nightmare, right? So this isn't bad. It's just you can't really have this floor and have some colors are going to clash with it, so the colors of your cabinets and everything now have been selected a little bit based around the floor as your cabinetry became more and more contemporary style. You know, if you were going to get quartz countertops, if you were going to do other things, then these very natural wood tones for your floor are just going to be not quite as good, but you can embrace it, maybe by if you are going to keep the floor plan the same, you could embrace it by getting wood and Island and then have your perimeter be something different. But even so, the tile, it's hard for me to see what goes into the family room too, sort of, Dave 32:07 yeah. So if you're on the last slide, it looks like you're at the island looking out towards the back of the house. Yeah, this little breakfast nook over on the right, that's like a little octagonal, maybe 10 feet by 10 feet. And to the left, there's a little sitting room, and it's, it's all over there as well, but there's nothing to the right Paul McAlary 32:26 when I'm looking out at the table. Dave 32:30 Now, well, there's another room, but that has, like, gun stock, wood type, okay, boring. So it doesn't, it doesn't go anywhere. The tile doesn't go over there. Paul McAlary 32:39 Well, that doesn't even seem like square feet to me, necessarily, but, you know, I'll take, Dave 32:43 well, that's what I estimated. Rita 32:46 And actually he he said it was between 708 100 with waste. Okay, yeah. And this is kind of a skewed picture the way it was taken, but I guess my first question is, if we went to a rectangular Island and seeing how there's these windows placed all along the back wall, how is that positioned, and where is the sun or the island staring at Dave 33:09 first of all, what I would say is Paul. Paul suggests you place it orthogonally, right? So, not at an angle. Rita 33:18 Well, what I saw was parallel to one, Paul McAlary 33:21 parallel to one side. The one I did probably works a little bit better because of that wall that comes out. I'm just trying to see that wall that comes out Rita 33:30 there, and at the Dave 33:33 door Paul McAlary 33:34 comes down there, and then it comes out at the angle. I guess you really need to know exactly how long that goes before you hit the angle, but when you do this, I think it's going to work better to going in the direction that I had, which has you not facing out towards the table, which, in the perfect world, would probably be A little bit better, but because of that angle, I'll see what I can do, and I'll white stuff out and see if I move everything around, what you end up with, Dave 34:09 yeah, we can Paul McAlary 34:10 see, but the island can twirl in the other direction. It's just that it's more natural because the of the angled wall and how the length of everything going in the direction that I have, but it will still work way better if I twirl it 90 degrees and the sink is facing the table. Rita 34:30 Okay, okay. Paul McAlary 34:32 There's even a third kitchen that works very well with the island facing the table, and that's when it's not an island at all, but it's a peninsula. So what if you come down and when you get to the angled wall, if suddenly you have a peninsula that start to emanate from that location? Now it's not the island that everybody wants, but now it's a peninsula with seating around it, all going in a straight line. With a sink, with the garbage pull out, with a dishwasher and everything, and you have a U shaped kitchen instead of an L shaped kitchen with an island. And if you did that, that's a kitchen that works, maybe best of all, but it doesn't have the island that everybody wants. So if you were cooking for a living, that might be a better design, but it definitely doesn't have an island, and everybody's looking to get an island. Rita 35:26 Okay, you've certainly given plenty to think about here, but I guess what's the next step? Is it something where we keep it or Yeah, so can we talk? Can Dave 35:35 we talk through so let me, let me tell you how we found you. My wife doesn't sleep, and so at midnight or one o'clock in the morning. She was trying to research, you know what's happened with us is, is we have one contractor who's going to be quoting using Arista craft. We had another cabinet person who primarily pushes savvy wood. And then there was, then there was Home Depot, who was pushing, who does the craft made, at least that's what we were looking at. And the fat you would one, were the only one who really came up with a layout. And that's what you see. We, frankly, just got some quotes from her, and I think her quotes are really, really high, and so we're not super happy with at least one of the paths that we've been taking. So So she, she was trying to research which cabinets are best. Yeah, Rita 36:24 I was not this contractor. I was researching, and you had a really good summary of all these different cabinet lines, and that's how I found you, my husband. Then further explored what you do. And so this is where we are now. So Dave 36:38 what do you do? I mean, like, like you are cabinet designer such that you would do a CAD design. We buy the cabinet from you. Paul McAlary 36:47 Where are you located? Dave 36:50 We are Ocean City, Maryland. Paul McAlary 36:52 Well, how far are you from Philadelphia? Drive time, Dave 36:56 two and a half an Rita 36:59 hour. All my relatives are in that area. Paul McAlary 37:02 So it's not that we can't sell a kitchen. It's just that if we're going to design a kitchen for somebody very far away, then the likelihood that in the end, they're going to come out and buy a kitchen from us shrinks dramatically, because either they run out of gas or they get a contractor that we know all the contractors around us, often, we're recommending contractors to customers. They're going to respect us and not steer our customers to other places. We're not expensive for cabinetry by any stretch of the imagination, but as people get far away, we make sure that they have to buy their cabinets from us. And the way that we do that is we charge a much bigger deposit to store it, I don't know, $1,000 or something like that. And then before we give them all the printouts of the drawings and the plans and the construction notes and everything that they're going to need to make that a kitchen, then they have to put 10% down towards the cost of the cabinetry that they're picking minus the $1,000 so if you were doing this in fab, you would in the design that you have now, I would think, if you're doing it in a painted cabinet in Fabio wood, you could save a bunch of money by not doing the back of the island in fab. You would and not doing your moldings in fabulous wood, but doing the back of the island in unfinished wood, and the moldings and unfinished wood, and then color matching and painting all of those things to match the cabinets. We do it all the time with people's kitchens that are $100,000 in cabinetry. So doing it in an inexpensive cabinetry isn't an issue this kitchen here, the way you've got it designed, or the way I've got it designed in fab, you would should probably be, even if you were doing the way they did it, with the molding on top and another molding. We didn't even talk about it, but they have your molding ending three inches away from the ceiling. So you shouldn't do that, right? You want to create a space that's three inches high, that's eight inches deep, that you can't clean or get all the dust and dust mites and dead skin and who knows what else out of there. If you're going to go within three inches of your ceiling with cabinetry, you should be reaching the ceiling with the moldings and enclosing everything in and that can be done very easily by having a bigger molding and a bigger riser going up to the ceiling and then doing it in unfinished wood, and then just painting it to match the cabinets. Dave 39:33 Are you worried about the flatness of the ceiling? Because that, to be honest, that's why I they did that with with based on my direction. So because I was afraid of the flatness of the ceiling, probably Paul McAlary 39:44 a little bit, but you're never going to notice that when you have a big, wide riser. So when you have that riser, that's the flat piece that's going up the crown molding, when it goes to the ceiling, that will ride up and down on the flat piece as your ceiling goes. In and Out of level, and you'll never notice, Dave 40:02 gotcha, Paul McAlary 40:03 you won't notice the difference between that riser being five inches at one end of the room and six inches if you were an inch off at the whole other end of the room, as long as the molding is exactly the same and everything else, your perspective from where you're standing will prevent you from understanding that you'd have to take a tape measure over there to figure it out. Really, Rita 40:27 okay, that makes sense, but you just said Paul, but you think, for the current layout, or even your layout, where would we be with Dobby wooden, Paul McAlary 40:35 yeah, let's say you don't do the molding, so you save yourself the molding, but the island you do more expensively with panels and everything else, the way I've done it, going around all four sides with cabinets that open up under the countertop, you're probably over $20,000 in fab you would but maybe, but not by much. You know, maybe 1819, 2021, depending on the door style that you pick, depending on the finish that you pick, depending on the interior mechanisms that you choose. Do you get a utility pull out with a knife block in it? Do you get tray pull outs, things like that, pantry pull outs. But said $20,000 it could be a couple of $1,000 less. Could be a couple of $1,000 more. Shouldn't really be much more than that. Why? What did she come up at Dave 41:25 well, so first of all, she also had a range hood. Those range words are really expensive, but she was, she was about 30, so Paul McAlary 41:33 the range hood is pretty expensive. So, but even if you did the range hood with the range hood, I don't think you get the third the range hood is like three and a half 1000. Dave 41:44 Yeah, yeah, that's what she had for that. But it came in just just north, with 30, you know, under 31 so pretty Paul McAlary 41:51 expensive. We put it on a computer, Rita 41:54 the molding and all that too. Dave 41:56 We were picking for fabulous Indigo for the island and dove white for the wall. Paul McAlary 42:02 Okay, so none of those colors are more expensive, so they're all standing colors. 30 grand is your area is more expensive than our area. So $30,000 where you are, the closer you get them, Washington, DC, the larger the numbers are getting. Right for the contractors and for for the cabinetry. So we're Philadelphia is a relatively more reasonable place. New York City is way more expensive. Boston's more expensive than that. San Francisco's everything is more than double the price. So that doesn't surprise me, but that's a little higher than it would be for months, I'm sure. And then the other thing, Dave 42:43 if we were to, if we were to use you, you know, obviously pay the $1,000 for the design. You can't just drop ship cabinets down here, you know, if we have our own contractor, Paul McAlary 42:56 oh, yeah, we don't do the work anyway. We don't do the work around here. Dave 42:59 Yeah, you said Ocean City might be too far, right? Oh, Paul McAlary 43:03 no, not at all. We could ship cabinets anywhere in the United States that we wanted. All the cabinet brands we carry are national brands, but we wouldn't do it two and a half hours is just around the most that will do it, and that's so that. What happens if you know a calamity happens in your kitchen, let's say, and we, I'll give you a perfect example. We had a fabulous kitchen once that the kitchen arrived at the customer's house, and there was a new driver that was driving the truck that was delivering cabinets, and His first stop was upstate New York, and then he came down to us, and then he unloaded the truck in upstate New York, and then didn't lock any of the cabinets into place in their boxes. And so he drove, oh, my state, New York, down to, actually, he was going down to the end of New Jersey, and that whole way the cabinets were bouncing in the back, and when they got opened up, pretty much every cabinet was destroyed. I mean, there were wall cabinets and things that were lightweight, that hadn't been up high, that were okay, that we could keep, but we had to come out to the person's house instantly and then figure out what we were reordering, which turned out to be two thirds, or three quarters of all of the cabinets, and then the rep and everybody else, they have to take our word for it and or come see it, or etc. So all those things have to happen to replace all of those customers cabinets. And if somebody is in Florida, I can't do that, right? I'm not flying down to Florida to do that. If you're in Ocean City. That's a giant pain in the neck, but it's rare, and it's two and a half hour drive, and we have people that are an hour and a half from us all the time that are at like, the Jersey Shore, like something like that. So it's, Dave 44:57 yeah, you're guarding against the yo shoot that. And where it's not just sending cabinets to us, it's sending cabinets and having to address something that the contractor can figure out, Paul McAlary 45:07 yeah, and warrantying them and even helping the contractors. Sometimes, sometimes we don't know the contractors. They get confused. We have to come out to explain things to them. Or it depends on how good the contractor is, if they haven't installed a lot of kitchens, then a lot of times they're doing stuff that they can't figure out what the problem is, and we have a hard time without seeing it being able to be able to figure it out. So we end up having to come down a typical thing would be like, I don't know if you know what a blind base is, but a blind base cabinet that goes in a corner, it doesn't actually go in the corner. Rita 45:46 Yeah, yeah. Paul McAlary 45:47 It has to be pulled out four inches away from the corner to make sure that the drawer in the blind base doesn't hit other cabinets. And the contractor that's installing a kitchen for the first time will put that in the corner, and then they'll be calling us to complain that the drawer doesn't open or something, and now hopefully it's before the countertop went in, because the whole kitchen is messed up. Nothing is aligning with anything else because none of these things were installed correctly. So it's our job to be working with all of these people. Really what we do is we sell the cabinets, but we don't make the cabinets, ship the cabinets, store the cabinets. None of those things are us. So whenever the problems arise, our job is to expedite you getting a perfect kitchen. That's really what we do. We're expediters for the cabinet brands that we carry, and for the whole kitchen process, making sure that things run smoothly, which is why it's upsetting if something does go wrong. Sometimes people are yelling at us that they got their cabinets and they're damaged. Well, that truck driver that didn't secure the cabinets that could happen to any cabinet brand, it just somebody new on the job. Didn't know what they were doing. Our job is to replace the cabinets. We got the cabinets that was fabulous, thankfully, and not a custom cabinet brand, and they delivered the new cabinet seven days after we went out, and it only took us one day to get out, so everybody was held up for a week, but that was the extent of their trauma. Dave 47:20 Do you have any any advice on the difference between Fabio wood and craft made? I mean, are they similar or Paul McAlary 47:27 so? They use the same hinges, they use the same tracks. Craft made is much more expensive generally, although there's cheaper versions of craft made that they sell that are not going to be very well made. But if you were to get normal, regular craft made and upgrade it to the same plywood construction that fabulous has your craft made cabinets should be around 30% maybe more expensive than fab you would and then they're going to be very similar. They'll be identical. For the painted cabinets that you're choosing, there'll be identical, just about in quality and endurability. However, craft mate is going to have many, many more kinds of wood and door styles and cabinet styles that Fabio would doesn't do, but none of which you're doing in your kitchen. So ideally, what you want to do is pick the brand of cabinets that you need to get the design that you have if you were picking quarter saw in white oak. Craft mate doesn't even offer that, but more expensive brands do. And then Fabio would has a door that they cheat. I don't know what kind of wood they're using, probably some kind of birch that they make look like quarter saw in Waco, but it's certainly not. And then you have to be in a much more expensive brand to get that. But in craft made, you can get cherry, and you can get hickory, and you can get many different finishes. The standard price, that's why fabulous, relatively less expensive is that they're only mass producing things that are very popular. Dave 49:07 Yeah. Rita 49:08 Okay, all right, so we got to decide next step, because I truthfully, are we taking a drive up to meet with Paul, and Dave 49:16 if Paul McAlary 49:16 you were going to work with us, then the first step, if you did really wanted to, I can send you down the other version of the design, but the first steps would be we'd have to get the measurements. So we'd have you measure for us, which is actually not that problematic. We need the both of you, maybe. And we'd have a Zoom meeting where I walked you through being our eyes and our hands, and I'd walk you through all the dimensions that we need. And then there's many, many different ways that we can check to make sure that we don't have any mistakes. And we can check by making sure that when we put all these things on the computer, that the numbers all add up in all four directions, essentially Dave 49:57 Okay, Paul McAlary 49:58 once we have those measurements. Process. Then the next step would be working on the design and getting the design the way that you wanted it. And that would be maybe a couple of appointments at least, to get your design the way that you wanted it. And then once you had the design, then that would be a sensible time to come up to look at our showroom and offices, etc, because then, now that we have it on the computer, we can tell you in advance, okay, in fabulous with us. It's $24,000 it's whatever it is. But then here's two brands that are less expensive than fab you would now that you can look at what do you think of these? Can you live with these things? Can you live with these colors? Here's brands that are more expensive than fab you would, that will offer cortisol and oak that will offer other things that you could contemplate. And then whatever you're picking, we can give you numbers for the things that you're picking. And then finding a contractor. Generally, the way to find the contractor is not the way that you're did it. I guess if you're going to get exactly the same layout, you can do it the way that you did it, but I think if you're getting a different layout, you want to give them the most amount of information possible, so all the plans, all the drawings and everything else, and then have several different people contractors all bid on it, Rita 51:16 right, right? I think you're absolutely right. That would be the ideal plan, I guess, but from your kitchen design experience, you would also have a sense of the complexity of moving a range Paul McAlary 51:29 all those, yeah, moving the things around your flooring is the only thing that you have a basement, downstairs. Rita 51:38 No, it's a crawl space. Paul McAlary 51:39 Oh, it's, a crawl Paul McAlary 51:40 space. If it's a crawl space, that's even better, because then you don't have a finished ceiling or anything, right? So either somebody can move the things from in the crawl space, which, if they're limber, is fine, or they can move the stuff by taking up the floor, because the floor is going to be messed up anyway, and then just doing it from above, but moving those things around, if you think about it, moving the range from one place to another, moving the dishwasher, the plumbing pipes, the first thing that happens when they rip out your island is every one of your plumbing pipes has to be cut and capped, right? So all the shut off valves and everything else have to be capped and come off just for them to rip out the cabinets, and then they rip out the cabinets, and then they put the new cabinets in, and then they have to put the shut off valves back on, and then hook up the new sink and everything else. So all of that is happening whether you move the sink or not to a new location. And if you're moving it to a new location. How long does it take the plumber to move the capped lines from one location to another? I mean, an hour and a half, maybe something like that. Yeah, to move the gas line. Maybe takes three or four hours, if he has to cut up the floor to get the gas line. I'm trying to remember, wish it's gas line now. It's over on the other wall. I mean, it's possible that Rita 53:03 it's on that 150 wall, Paul McAlary 53:05 yeah, if it's on the if it ended up being on the 150 wall, again, he doesn't have to move it. But even if he had to move it to the other wall, it's a few $100 generally, except for your flooring is really the only thing. Sometimes, when we're moving stuff around, it lays out better when it's a better design, right? Meaning that you don't end up with a lot of little cabinets. They're bigger cabinets. They all sort of lay out better, and then, lo and behold, you just have less doors, which are the most expensive part of the cabinet process. So the cabinets are $900 less for the cabinets, but then the plumbing bill is $900 to move them around. So that didn't even cost you anything, but the tile on the floor is the big thing. But I would just say that if the kitchen cabinetry is going to cost you $25,000 less, let's say, are you getting new appliances, or are you keeping your appliances Rita 54:08 we were getting, well, we wanted the wall oven and and then we got to decide about the rain, since a 36 inch G Cafe like $6,000 so Dave 54:20 you apply it, Paul McAlary 54:22 yeah, but let's say you got new appliances and you can spend if you got the GE Cafe range again, if it's me, I'm spending $6,000 on my appliances first, and saving the $4,000 on the range to put it towards my floor. Let's say you spent $12,000 on appliances. If you're getting all brand new appliances and everything all brand new. So now you got 25 and at least 10 is 35 then your countertops, if you're getting your countertops, my way is actually much more countertop space, but actually less expensive, because there's no waste, really. But your counter. Tops. If you pick granite, it might be three and a half $1,000 but you're not going to pick that. You're going to pick quartz countertops, and then you're not going to like the inexpensive colors. You're going to like the expensive colors. And so now your countertops are going to be maybe not $10,000 but maybe $8,000 so now we got 2535 43 and then you're going to have sinks, faucets, handles, back, splash, tile. Those things are at least two so now we got you to 2535 $45,000 in the stuff that you're going to get without the flooring. So that's how much that stuff is going to cost. And then the construction costs to do the kitchen that you have now in this new kitchen, without the flooring is pretty much going to be the same, almost. You know, one way you're ripping out the corner and then you're building this oven cabinet into the corner. But it's not going to matter to the contractor too much, other than just moving the things around a little bit, which isn't going to be that much different. So you're at 45 you're probably there'll be contractors that could certainly be under 30 for all the construction without the flooring. We have guys that are near us, though, that are inexpensive. That might be 25 but say you spent 30 and 45 you're at $75,000 so if you're spending $75,000 and we think that your flooring is going to cost you $12,000 now the flooring can be coordinated with everything else that you're picking. It's more contemporary, and the project is 15% more that $12,000 you may not get it back to your My age and an old person, but when you go to sell your home, there's no surprises in our industry. That's a better layout, and it will still be a better layout 20 years from now, you'll get back the money only because someone else won't have to try to figure out how to do a better design. So I'm doing everything in my power to save the $12,000 that I'm going to spend on the floor by saving $6,000 on appliances and maybe $6,000 on cabinetry. Dave 57:15 Yeah. Rita 57:16 Okay, Dave 57:16 all right. So I think we need to digest the I'll say the new approach, yeah. And I'll communicate with you, with looking to Paul McAlary 57:24 me. I'll send you. I'll do another hand drawing, and I'll send it to you. What time is it now? 345, so that won't take me long. I'll do the one in the other direction and fix this one a little bit. You can think about it. You can also, I would encourage you to is work on the design that I send with someone local, get prices, and then you can call in every Friday, and then we can tweak it and fix it. And anybody has mistakes, we can catch them, and then you're working with somebody locally. This isn't business. We're looking really to get although once in a blue moon, we do do it. That's why we charge $1,000 just because when we did it in the past, a lot of times as people get farther and farther away, it just projects that happen less and less Rita 58:10 right? Paul McAlary 58:11 Why is someone calling us from Kansas to have us design a kitchen it gets wilder and wilder as it gets really farther and farther away, right? So you guys are sort of just in the area that makes some sense. Maybe you're in the more expensive zone and not crazy out of Dave 58:30 it. Part of, part of why Rita was saying, you know, coming up is, is we do still have family up in Horsham. So, you know, coming up and spending the night with them, wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone? So, you know, we are, we're not Kansas, but we're we're not super close, but it's not too bad. So we're finding that the talent down here at the beach is a bunch of hunters who are trying to do something, you know, on their spare time. So yeah, you know, Paul McAlary 58:57 yeah, at the shore is always hard. I mean finding a contractor at the Jersey shore near us, the contractors and the places that sell cabinetry, everything is much, much higher because it's the Jersey Shore, and a lot of the people end up buying cabinets from us, and then having contractors that drive all the way down an hour and a half every morning to get to their house to work, because it ends up being less expensive, even though they're charging you for their commute. Dave 59:27 And but the clientele there is probably a bunch of New Yorkers who you know, got a second house down there, so Rita 59:33 higher end, Dave 59:34 yeah, Paul McAlary 59:35 yeah. I mean, we just had a customer get an estimate from a contractor at the Jersey Shore, and the estimate was $110,000 and then a local contractor from our area gave him a price for essentially half that $55,000 he asked me, What's wrong with the contractor that you recommended? And I recommended both, but I knew one was from his area. I said, You. The guy from your area is expensive area and there, and he's got 30 employees, and he's a much bigger operation. The other guy's a much smaller contractor. And I guarantee you, the expensive guy, the job is going to run smoother, and he doesn't have people that don't speak English working for him or any of those things. But ultimately, when the whole thing is done. It has to be perfect, right? Otherwise you'd be mad at me and didn't make any money recommending a contractor. I'm just warning you, just plan on things being a little bit more difficult, but you're saving $50,000 so you decide, yeah, Dave 1:00:37 okay, Rita 1:00:38 right. Well, we greatly appreciate the time you spent with Dave and now with me too. So yeah, we're definitely interested, like we need to think about everything you shared with us and figure out next step. Paul McAlary 1:00:53 Yeah, think about it. I'll send it other ways. You can sort of think about it, and then you can work on it down there, see how far you get, and then wait before you pay $1,000 to us. Like I said, it's up to you, and probably you wouldn't even be working with me. What I would do if we did that? I'm better at everybody, at walking you through all the measurements and everything else. But once it was all done, we give you to Chris. Chris is the vice president of the company. He's the head designer, and he would work with you, because he's a much I always all the designers I described this way, but Chris in particular, he's a nicer version of me, right? So you're going to have all these things that you're going to want to think about and talk about, and maybe be leaning towards decisions that Chris and I might not like he will be much gentler in corralling customers and getting them to make good decisions, and then ultimately, they'll be happier and like him a lot better at the end. And me, I'm older, crankier, and as people are picking things that I don't think are good choices, it's really harder for me to be as neutral as he can be and keep a good a good smile on his face. He's a better person to work at. And he won't not say anything I would have said. He'll just say it in a much nicer way. Dave 1:02:14 I think you and I are very similar, Rita 1:02:16 and you're saying you're older. We're 62 so maybe the same age, or you're Paul McAlary 1:02:21 I'm 68 so I'm 68 and bless you, breaking my body down via pickleball. But Paul McAlary 1:02:30 we haven't. We haven't tried that yet. We need to try that. Paul McAlary 1:02:32 Oh, it's, it's a great sport. You play tennis at all. Dave 1:02:36 We don't. But you know what happens down here is, like, I actually went to a pickleball place. They had 18 courts, and I wanted to go there and have Rita try it. And there were 18, there were there were 72 people playing and 72 people waiting. I'm like, Oh, God, Oh, my goodness, Paul McAlary 1:02:52 yeah, it's wonderful fun, and you can learn it rapidly. And actually, if you haven't played tennis before, then you don't have to unlearn things. So it's some ways it can help, but it really on. Tennis is all form, and so you don't really need the form that you have in pickleball. Pickleball is more reaction time. And my brother, for example, was a very good tennis player, and now he's a very good pickleball player, but most people, when they play both sports, it's it. When I play tennis for in an hour and a half, once or twice, we have a really funny point that everybody's laughing. We can't believe that the point went like that. And how did that happen? And how did you get that in and how did that, you know, what was whatever? In pickleball, it happens like every third point, so there's something crazy happening and some shot, okay, can't believe somebody got or made or whatever. It's just, it's a lot of fun, Dave 1:03:48 yeah. Rita 1:03:49 Oh, that's a different issue, but it's but next step would be, if we wanted to make an appointment with you at the meeting, we just leave a message at this number or email Dave 1:03:58 you. Paul McAlary 1:03:58 This is the main number that you called okay goes directly to me. So I field all of our okay walls. I essentially Rita 1:04:07 okay Paul McAlary 1:04:07 during the day. I don't design kitchens anymore. I just field our phone calls and then talk to customers, explain our design process, and then assign a designer, and that's, that's Dave 1:04:17 what I do. Thank you so much for your time? Paul McAlary 1:04:20 Yeah, I'll send you. I might get to it. I'll probably get to it before I go to dinner tonight. So I'll send you both the different versions with the layout. You can sort of think about it. And then if you decide you really want to entertain this and have us work on it together, then the next step. But maybe what you want to do is you can call in any other Friday, and then have as many free appointments as you want before you end up spending $1,000 Dave 1:04:47 yeah, so if you don't hear from us, next Friday, next Friday is going to be good Friday. So so there's a chance that we're going to be busy with family. So if you don't hear from us, don't, don't think Paul McAlary 1:04:57 that we're Dave 1:04:57 taking advantage. I'm just saying in there. I'm Paul McAlary 1:05:00 not worried me where, Dave 1:05:02 okay, Paul McAlary 1:05:03 your business, that will do, but it's not something we're actively seeking right, Dave 1:05:09 but Speaker 1 1:05:09 right, Paul McAlary 1:05:09 whatever Paul McAlary 1:05:09 you guys decide is fine with us, so either way, Rita 1:05:12 thank you so much for your time. Thank Dave 1:05:14 you Paul McAlary 1:05:15 talking to you Speaker 1 1:05:15 both. Take care. Paul McAlary 1:05:16 Take care. Speaker 1 1:05:17 Bye, bye. Mark Mitten 1:05:19 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul McAlary. This podcast was brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai