Mark Mitten 00:03 Are you thinking about spending? $20,000? Will particleboard cabinets? Do you better call Paul? Paul McAlary 00:17 Bernie, can you hear me? Bernie 00:19 I can. Paul, how are you? Paul McAlary 00:21 Good, good. Welcome to calls with Paul. So I'm looking at your design. The only thing if we had like one measurement across the room, it would help knowing how much space you're really leaving. But Bernie 00:38 like, how far is from any of these distances? Do you know I know them. So if you look at if you go with wise, let's say from from door to door on if we're talking north, south, east, west, on on the west, that's the doorway to our back hallway and our mudroom. Okay, the doorway on the east is to our dining room. That's about 20 feet. Okay. The big question is, is what's the distance that you've got? From the the width of the room and you can go? You can It doesn't matter if you do the refrigerator one? Or if you do the I would say maybe the other one, but either one is fine. The wall and back of the refrigerator or whatever, any light can we go from? At on the self there? That's the doorway from our foyer to the back wall where the sink is. That's about just under 13 feet. Paul McAlary 01:37 This is from the wall and back of the refrigerator to the sink wall, you think? Yes. So 1313 Bernie 01:43 feet, Paul McAlary 01:44 you know, the island that you want. And you're everybody's hell bent on getting on? Probably right now. You have a U shaped kitchen instead of an island. Right? Bernie 01:55 You're right, we have a peninsula there. Right? You have a peninsula there. So Paul McAlary 01:59 you're gonna make it into the island whether or not we you have really quite enough room or not. Right. So that's, that's something that Bernie 02:08 my wife and I are, you know, we're debating, and we've spoken a couple of different designers and yeah, different options. Paul McAlary 02:14 Yeah, I mean, we love your feedback. Yeah, you have 100. And if it's 13 feet to that back wall to the refrigerator, you'd have 156 inches. Now the first thing is, once you're doing this kind of design, you shouldn't don't try to have your cake and eat it too. So you're getting a full depth refrigerator, it looks like and you're you know you're leaving the pantry back but then the refrigerator is jutting out forward from the pantry, just get a counter depth refrigerator and push your refrigerator back as far as possible. And then we'll calculate the numbers and see if that even works. You know, you don't you can't have your cake and eat it too. Bernie 02:58 Good. We had count we had Connor depth in mind. And it's this is just how the designer drew what happened. This is, you know this, this very, very basic. And we live in a give a little little bit of background, we bought our house, but a year ago with the second owner of a house that was built about 40 years ago. So we have like a 1980 kitchen. And just starting to get some ideas together to see you know what we can do here and what the costs are going to be. counter depth is fine on the fridge, we Paul McAlary 03:30 say we got counter depth refrigerator, then if you push your refrigerator back to the wall and you make it even when you make the cabinetry over the refrigerator, even with that pantry, then your your cabinets on the your cabinets on your on your sink side, if you have 156 inches, which is 13 times 12 is 156 inches, minus let's say your cabinets in your countertop on the one side of the room which is 25 and a half. So we subtract that. And then your refrigerator box is going to be like a little bit more than 24 inches. And then the doors in the refrigerator are going to come out at least three inches from there, not even including the handles. So let's give you the benefit of the doubt and take off the hand and leave the handles unaccounted for. So my 27 So now you got 103 inches that are left between the face of the refrigerator and your sink. And then this island that you put in, I can't really see but it looks like you might have a microwave drawer in the island. Is was that so that's what we'd like to do? Yeah, right. So then we know that your island countertop has to be 27 inches wide, because the cabinet's 24 inches wide and then you need an inch and a half on both sides. So minus 27 that equals 76 inches 76 and a half inches left and Let's say we divided, you divided this in half, you're going to be left with 38 inches in back of the island and in front of the island, you can measure this out. So go to your existing kitchen now, measure 38 inches, and then put a chair so you can't go any farther. And now try to open the drawers in your cabinets, or pull your dishwasher down, you'll find you can't stand in front of your dishwasher, certainly, if your dishwasher door is down. And if you try to open the drawers and the doors, you can't pull them all the way out and stand in front of them, really, you have to do everything from the side. So like, let's say you were looking at this, and I didn't know you go into the cabinet to the left of your microwave drawer. If that's like, I don't have a picture of it. But if that cabinet happened to have a door on it, and you wanted to open that door, you would sort of have to open the door, you couldn't stand in front of the cabinet and open the door, your butt would be hitting the the countertop and back of you, you'd stand to the side, open the door and then bend down and look inside. So it's a it's a bigger concession than people are realizing, once they're leaving these spaces, that technically, if you're a kitchen designer, we're told they're supposed to be 48 inches. So you know, so that's a big difference. A lot of times we cheat, and we leave 42 inches, but we don't really usually try to leave, you know, if you're leaving 38 and a quarter, it's a big concession. And then there'll be other things that I don't know how long you plan to be on, you're in your house. But always when you do something that when you do the thing that everybody wants to do, which is get the kitchen independent of the measurements that they really want. Because they want what they want, what they want what they want, right. So when you do that, then you go to sell your house. And now the prospective buyers come over with their real estate agent and their mother in law, and they're all wandering around to beautiful house, and they get to the kitchen, and now they only have 38 inches to pass each other around your island. So they all have to be really thin to even do that. And they'll all be rubbing against each other when they try to do that. And so they're gonna get in the car after they've looked at your house. And they're gonna say, Well, what did you think? And they're gonna say, well, Everything's beautiful, but the kitchen really is so small. Let's go to the next house. Right? So you have to keep that in mind. I mean, it's going to have the island that you want, that everybody else wants, it's gonna have maybe even be in a different color. So the style wise, it will be good. But just function wise, it's really, it's really not a space that's supposed to have have this. So all that be all that being said, it maybe gets a little bit better if we try to move stuff around a little bit, like how do we move this stuff around? Well, if your refrigerator didn't go, How deep are those cabinets over on the other side? They're like only 18, aren't they? Bernie 08:19 Those are the chains. And originally, what we have now follows we have an old pantry cabinet with like accordion doors that we'd like to take out. And originally my wife were thinking that we were just going to leave that wall blank. And we've spoken to two different designers locally and one didn't, didn't push us on that the as you can see from the designer front of you, the other designer was kind of suggesting, you know, you might want some more storage space here. There'll be another counter. And we weren't even even thinking about putting those cabinets and you're correct. They are 18 deep. Going with those cabinets right there. And then it's skewing the island. Unknown Speaker 09:02 Yeah, what do you mean a skillet make it in a different angle or something? Unknown Speaker 09:06 Meaning meaning meaning omitting it? Paul McAlary 09:08 Oh, omitting it. Yeah, I mean, you can if you omit it now you have a very spacious room. Like right now probably. Do you have the peninsula and does it have horrible cabinets hanging down from the ceiling over it? Unknown Speaker 09:21 No, there's nothing over it. There's nothing on the lowers with a con or nothing over it. Unknown Speaker 09:25 Right. So but at least you know what that is. So if you do have the peninsula, you'll get more cabinetry and then everything works really well. If you get rid of the island, everything's very spacious and the 18 inch cabinets work. You could do the the good thing about the island is if you didn't put the microwave in the island, you could get an island that was movable. It could be like a butcher block countertop and open cabinetry or something like that below. And then you could have it in the middle of the room. if that worked, if you wanted to just pull it over to the countertop that's on the right side of the left, I mean the left side of the dishwasher, you could sort of use it as a peninsula. Sometimes, if you have a company over or something like that, and you're gonna have a lot of people in the kitchen, you could just roll it into some other room. If it was me, that's what I would do. Take a cardboard box, put it 38 inches away from the cabinets. And now everywhere you go in your kitchen, that's your walking space is 38 inches on the front of the island, on the back of the island. And pretty much it looks like right in front of the stove too. So okay, and then the other thing I'd say is that what's the outside of your house made out of? Is it citing? It's probably side out? Unknown Speaker 10:50 It's cited on on three sides, and we have a brick front? Unknown Speaker 10:54 How high is your are your ceilings? Bernie 10:58 We have pretty fairly low ceilings, I'd say they're just under eight feet tall. Unknown Speaker 11:03 So if they're just under eight feet, you're getting 36 inch high wall cabinets or what Unknown Speaker 11:09 would be I think we're talking 33. Unknown Speaker 11:13 So if so if it's you need to measure, this is an important thing, because you need to measure your ceiling, because there'll be huge price differences in cabinetry that you're paying for. If you're getting any kind of cabinet size. That's not standard. So okay, but what do you know what, like, have you priced out your kitchen yet? And what cabinet brands? Have you priced that out in at all? You know, Unknown Speaker 11:42 with started to and we've priced it out with? Both KraftMaid and Wellborn. Unknown Speaker 11:49 Okay, so Wellborn is a difficult cabinet brand to give you a numbers on Wellborn has everything from very inexpensive lines to very expensive lines. But like craft maids uniform. So if you got KraftMaid Vantage, or you upgraded KraftMaid to all plywood construction. And you did this kitchen in 33, or some kind of customized wall cabinet height. You might be looking at low to mid 20s in cabinetry. Did you get a number in KraftMaid? Yeah, Unknown Speaker 12:25 give me one second. So we in KraftMaid, it was all plywood construction. And I've read like your webpage and your articles and your blog and it has checked all the boxes in terms of yeah, all plywood dovetail on. Unknown Speaker 12:44 If it was at a home, you'd have to upgrade those things. If you were at an independent dealer, those dealers mostly sell KraftMaid Vantage and an automatic Unknown Speaker 12:54 comes with that. Yeah, and this is an independent dealer of four or five other lines. So not if you if you taking a look at the design again. So this this price does not include the cabinetry on the on the south end there to the left of the doorway, because again, we were thinking of blank walls. Yeah, so they gave us a number of just under $16,000. Unknown Speaker 13:24 Yeah, so if you add that those cabinets over there, in this picture, you got some glass doors, you got an 18 inch pantry cabinet. The way you pay for an 18 inch pantry cabinet is first to pay for a 24 inch pantry cabinet, then you pay 25% more to make it shallower you add all those things up, you'll probably you'll see that you'll end up in the low 20s to mid 20s, probably low 20s. Then from that what kind of color and door style were Bernie 13:51 you picking? Were from what we've heard and what I've read what everyone else is, so it's going to be white shaker. Paul McAlary 13:58 So again, now you're getting a white Shaker Cabinet in a cabinet brand like KraftMaid that doesn't even do that particularly well. So okay, like there'll be much less expensive brands, I always use fabric what is the nicest I think of the inexpensive brands, but okay, like in fab you would, their doors will be sanded to a much smoother finish. You won't see the seams between all the parts and the pieces of the cabinetry. Okay, because they're getting sanded overseas, and it just looks a lot better. And then in craft made you you have the advantage of craft made. It's a good cabinet brand. They have all kinds of sizes that you can get that you can't get in under in less expensive cabinet brands. They have all kinds of wood species that you can't get. They have really nice stained finishes, and more color selection, but you're not doing any of those things. So your pick Getting a brand, maybe Wellborn to if you're upgrading, and then KraftMaid, you're picking a brand that doesn't really do doesn't do inexpensively, the very simple thing you're requesting. So that's only really true, all dependent on the height of your ceiling. Because I don't know, without knowing the height of your ceiling, you might really want to get unusual height cabinets. Okay, so that would be a compelling reason to get one of these more expensive brands. That's going to make 33 inch high cabinets. You're not in your kitchen right now. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 15:40 I just walked downstairs. Yeah, I'm getting a tape measure, as we get a Unknown Speaker 15:44 tape measure, and you measure to the ceiling, all everything will be revealed to us. Unknown Speaker 15:49 Okay, here we go. And I was trying to remember, because of course, last Christmas was our first Christmas and we had to measure for a tree and add it make sure we didn't get a tree that was too tall. And we did some trimming. So I have, I have seven feet 10 inches in my head. But here I go. I was off. Fall, I've got seven, basically seven and a half, Unknown Speaker 16:15 90 inches. Yeah, now you have a tough choice here. If you were to get 33 inch high cabinets, like from KraftMaid, you would now be assuming that your cabinets, which would go up to 87 inches, if the floor was staying the same height that it is now. And then you'd be using three inches of molding to reach your ceiling. But if we ever do this for a customer, you know, you're now putting, I always say it's putting 10 pounds of sausage in a 10 pound wrapper. So you're really stuffing everything to the limits. So you really need your cabinetry and your ceiling to all be perfectly level and not nothing to be out of level. So whenever we do this with customers, if we try to really push the envelope of what can fit in this space, we come out to the customer's house and we put a laser level on the room. And then you measure up and you can see how off the ceiling is. So you could have like, let's say heaven forbid, you had a half inch difference between around your stove going towards your sink between the ceiling height, well, they'll put the cabinets in, they have to put them in level. And then at one point in the room, the molding might be touching the ceiling and the other part of the room. Either it could be a half inch away from the ceiling, or it might not be enough room to put the molding on, and then you'd lower everything down. And then it would be the same problem in the other direction. Now your cabinetry would be a little bit too low in one section, which is okay. But then it would still be touching the ceiling there and not touching the ceiling in the other direction. So to get the 33 inch high wall cabinets that may or may not fit depending on how level your ceiling is. You got to really first put a laser level on the room to make sure it all works. And then if it's not level, you have to level your whole ceiling so that everything can be adjusted accordingly. But just the getting the 33 inch cabinets to or increasing the price of your kitchen $5,000 or something like that. Okay, well, Bernie 18:28 you have I didn't realize it would be that much. Well, Unknown Speaker 18:31 it forces you it's not just the 33 inch cabinets, it just forces you into a line that's going to offer that. Now you can't take advantage of the less expensive cabinet brands because they don't have the 30 stories. So really what your choice is, is get the 30 threes, laser level your ceiling, it all will work out you'll get a little bit more room inside your cabinets, and you'll spend a whole lot more money, but you'll be using every inch of space that you have, or you get 30 inch wall cabinets and have a two piece crown molding that's six inches tall and reaches the ceiling. And then you know there'll be one flat piece that will go up to the ceiling that's like six inches or and then the other crown molding you have will ride up and down around the room as your ceiling goes in and out of level. So you'll never notice if it's two and a half inches of molding is exposed and of the flat molding is exposed in one part of the room and three inches exposed in the other part of the room. It will all look fine. But you'll have 30 inch wall cabinets now instead of 36 instead of 30 threes. So that's really the biggest that's the biggest choice that you have to Unknown Speaker 19:47 make. That we were thinking about because it's an old ceiling and you know when we'd like something new and fresh and we'd like to put recessed lighting into thinking about taking The ceiling down and putting up a new one. Unknown Speaker 20:04 Well, you just have to the contractors, if you took the ceiling down and put up a new one, the contractors have to understand. And someone has to warn them, that when they put up the new one, they just don't take down the old one and then putting new drywall up, they have to go around the room and Shim down the joists, so that everything ends up being level so that when you put your cabinets in, that the molding fits perfectly to the ceiling, I mean, you can be a quarter of an inch off, and you can caulk that difference of a quarter of an inch. But you know, if you're half an inch off, there's no caulk in the world, that's going to make that kind of disguise that effectively it's going to sort of reveal exactly you know how much your house is, whatever, settled over time. So I don't know, I mean, you could be within a quarter of an inch and everything's fine. So it really just depends on your, on your home. And it's it's built in the 80s, you said so a lot of times those houses haven't settled that much. If you're looking to save money, you could be getting any kinds of a dozen different cabinet brands that will sell you 30 inch shaker, cabinetry, that will be a lot less expensive. They'll only offer 30s. Bernie 21:20 Okay. Okay, so I think we have this, I think we have 30s Right now, Unknown Speaker 21:27 you probably have 30, right now, with a little crummy molding on top, and then a little space that's dealing or something like that. So there's Bernie 21:35 actually this kind of massive molding that we always kind of joke about. So it's, it's something that is a little strange, to be honest with you, but it's actually so it's actually a large molding with with a 30 inch cabinet. And Unknown Speaker 21:50 yeah, so you don't want the really gigantic molding, what you want is a flat one, with maybe like an a profile on the bottom of the molding, a lot of times we use upside down baseboard, and use that piece on the bottom, and then a normal like three inch high molding on top. Okay, but I'll tell you, the big molding that you have. Now, if that really works on top of your 30 inch cabinets and is it really reached the ceiling, Bernie 22:18 it does reach the ceiling. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 22:19 that sort of means that your ceiling has to be pretty much perfectly level or very, very level, because it wouldn't have worked before. If your ceiling was that adequate at a level. Bernie 22:28 That's a good point, I'll have to go around the room and take a good look. Unknown Speaker 22:32 I mean, that's the biggest choice like for cabinet brand wise, Wellborn KraftMaid, they're both good lines, if you upgrade them Wellborn has less expensive of the more expensive ones, you'll need to be in the more expensive Wellborn lines to get a 33 inch, same as KraftMaid. And then you're probably going to be similar pricing, once you get into the if you're going to be doing 33 inch high wall cabinets in either one of those brands. But if you go down to the 30s, suddenly, you could be getting Fabula, wood, Wolf, j and k, those are probably some of the most popular brands, that will be a lot less six 40% less expensive. Unknown Speaker 23:16 Well, that's what I was going to ask you and I know you, you sell fab you wood, and I've seen some of the photos that you've posted and so forth. And they look like like excellent cabinets. And I know that the one of the two local dealers sells wool. And I had seen that in some of your writings as well. So that was the back of my mind. In terms of if if we had to go with a brand if we're gonna go with 30 threes, and we had to go with a craftsman or a Wellborn. And just to give you some background, so the other design of the wellborn dealers, also a custom cabinet maker and he he recommended the premier level with Wellborn. Okay, because he said he said if you go up to I think it's the estate, which is the step above. It's basically he said you might as well just go with custom cabinetry. Right. That was his opinion. That was his opinion at least. So they quoted that premier level, but it wasn't full plywood construction. And actually, it was MDF doors for everything. Not in the island. The island is listed as maple and the other neurolysis MDF doors. And we've got a price of about $22,000 Unknown Speaker 24:40 That that's crazy. I never would spend that right that makes no sense. 20 doors are MDF, and that's the whole like the middle panel being MDF is probably a good thing. It just keeps your doors morphing and it's heavier than wood. And the middle panel doesn't even isn't even glued into the door. So that's fine. But if the whole door is MDF, that means that the hinges are in MDF. That means that the if you hit your cabinet, it's so easy to Nick and scratch and everything else that you know over time and MDF door just gets very beat up fast by most people. I mean, some people are very gentle with things depends on your family, not me, I'm hard on things I would I would destroy an MDF kitchen pretty quickly, just by bumping into things hitting, you know, you just take some pots and pans out of the cabinet, you're not paying attention. And all of a sudden you just hit the edge of the door. It's particleboard, the paint the door chips, the paint comes off. And now there's no real way to repair it because it's not real wood and everything else I wouldn't spend. Bernie 25:52 Okay, and I have to get really get some some clarification. I haven't had a second conversation since I got the design, the layout and the quote. So I'm not sure if that's for just a center panel or if there's a whole door then vs. But that was he had mentioned both. Unknown Speaker 26:08 Did that one include though the pantry and the other stuff? That's on the back pocket Unknown Speaker 26:14 did yeah, that was that was everything that you see in that layout in front of you. Unknown Speaker 26:18 So that's like I said, that's pretty much what it KraftMaid and Wellborn if you're upgrading to similar levels should be about the same. So that's why I sell 20s. So maybe it's an MDF panel, I'd want to make my cabinets plywood. The base cabinets don't really matter so much except for the things on the end. The wall cabinets though with their MDF, you're screwing this MDF to the wall. And you're expecting all these heavy dishes and everything else to be held up for 20 years. It's just a much much better if your wall cabinets are made out of plywood. Okay, Unknown Speaker 26:58 so um, so Paul, I'm thinking just, you know, just doors, you know, I actually have the wellborn catalog in front of me. So it's the it's the standard standard construction. So it's I think that the MDF wouldn't wouldn't be the the boxes, so to speak would just be would just be the doors themselves all around or maybe it's just those center panels. But I don't think we're talking about MDF construction, you know, screwing any of that to the wall. Unknown Speaker 27:28 So the boxes that you think the boxes are what plywood Unknown Speaker 27:32 I'm gonna it's not it's not the all plywood construction I'm reading it says 11 sixteenths by three and a half wood grain laminated fiberboard hanging rails. I beam furniture board support back inside. Unknown Speaker 27:49 Yeah, it's all particle board. So it is yeah, you don't want I mean, the cabinet itself is all particle board, you don't want that. You don't want to spend $20,000 for that. Bernie 27:58 Okay, okay. 22. And that's why I'm calling you. Unknown Speaker 28:04 Yeah, so that's too much money. I mean, I would suck it up and spend the the, whatever it's going to be the 12 or $14,000 for the world for you know, somewhere around there and have the two piece molding, you'll get a better made cabinet, you'll be spending way less money and you know, you'll be sacked, the sacrifice that you're making is you just won't have the three extra inches of cabinetry. And then the one thing that nobody considers because we're talking one kitchens, $14,000 in cabinetry, the other kitchens $22,000, you upgraded the plywood, now it's 24,020 $5,000. So once you've got a $9,000 difference in the cost of the cabinetry, doing something like taking your window where your sink is, and dragging it down, and putting it farther to the left. So that may be all you have is the dishwasher with a panel and then the sink, and then the all the cabinetry in between, you know that's going to someone's gonna have to redo the siding on the back of your house. But that siding, even if they can't be matched exactly, they can take siding from the side of your house or something under a bush and use that siding. And then replace the siding that might have faded or whatever, in a place that's not very noticeable. And then getting even if you're you reuse that window, you could reuse that window. Or if you got an even a new window and you got nice windows, those windows are going to be maybe $600 or something like that. And this work that we're talking about is probably not going to be more than two or 3000. That can't be $3,000. It's got to be somewhere between two and $3,000 in work, and now it's a very diff Kitchen. So now the good thing about moving the sink down is your kitchen right now is really what's called a one cooked kitchen. Because if a person stands at the sink, another person stands at the stove, you're both bumping into each other. If your sink slides all the way down to the left, then suddenly, it works much better. And then now you'll have a whole lot of countertop between your sink and the stove. But there's even other designs too, that you could sort of consider that have their own flaws as well. But you could move your refrigerator off of where it is here and put it next to the sliding doors and get a smaller sink, cabinet. And then now you got a very compressed area between your sink and your stove. But now the the cabinetry on the back wall can be any depth that you want. So you could make everything a little bit shallower. And then your island works. That's a different poison pill, you pick the problem that you want to live with. Unknown Speaker 31:13 So that's something that my wife had an idea about, I think she'd been looking around as well, of course, and she thought something about putting the fridge next to the sliding door. And, and also, by the way we do Unknown Speaker 31:32 the table that we do works, the table that works the least in your particular space is a round table. You're right. So if you actually had a rectangular table, and you wanted the best table for your space, it would be to take a rectangular table, and to put it up against the wall to the left of the sliding doors. And then you would sit to people on the side with their backs to the back backyard, to people with their backs to the angled wall. And you could sit one person on the end. And so you'd actually set five instead of four. And it wouldn't come out as far as this table does. Okay, what's another good thing about this table is it's 48 inches wide. But you have to leave at least almost 30 inches, to be able to pull the chair out and extricate yourself from the table with the chair against the wall. Whereas if you push the whole table against the wall, you can make it a five foot table instead of a four foot table. And all of a sudden, the end of the tables not sticking out into the doorway anymore, you're sitting five, and you got a clear shot going in and out the back door. And then if you ever chose the refrigerator version, then you could really move your refrigerator all the way to be right against the trim on the door. And then you just have to move the light switch or something. Unknown Speaker 33:01 Okay, but interesting. Unknown Speaker 33:03 So those are the kinds of choices you have, but your biggest choice is 33 or 30s. Bernie 33:08 Okay, 33 versus 34, Unknown Speaker 33:11 j and k value would, or one of these brands. They're all American companies. They're building the cabinets and assembling the cabinets in the United States. In fact, the wolf cabinet Brand Used to be owned by the our governor in Pennsylvania. But they're all American brands, but their doors and fronts at the very least are being manufactured in Vietnam. And then they're being shipped here. And then they're being assembled here. And that's how they can do this painted finish. That's so easy to do. It's a little bit labor intensive, because it's lots of sanding to get the joints all smooth, and everything else but labor is so much less overseas, that you can get the cabinet's to be pretty, very nice finishes for inexpensive prices. Bernie 34:00 Okay, that makes sense. Unknown Speaker 34:03 So all right. So yeah, Bernie 34:05 thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. Unknown Speaker 34:07 Yeah, best of luck. And you know, if you're playing around with this more and you ever want to call back feel free. Bernie 34:12 Thank you might do so. Appreciate it. Thanks, Paul. Thanks, Bernie. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye. Mark Mitten 34:19 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with the world's greatest Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai