Mark Mitten  0:05  
Are you having trouble finding a decent reasonably priced Kitchen Designer in your area? You better call Paul.

Paul McAlary  0:16  
Hello, Taylor, can you hear me? Yes. Hi, Paul. Hi. And it's Lex is your husband? Is that correct? Yeah, I'm here to. Okay, great. Welcome the better coal poll. So I got your designs that you emailed over, and the first one that you sent with the refrigerator and the range very close to one another, is what you have now. And the the other one is what you guys have come up with? Yes. Okay. So why don't we let me ask you a few questions before we even get started. So what's the outside of your house? Is it siding? Is it stucco is it? What's it made out of? It's mostly

Taylor and Rex  1:09  
brick, the front of the house is about the bottom half, this brick in the top half is siding on the front, but all the sides of the exterior are brick.

Paul McAlary  1:17  
Okay, so the window where your sink is, is built into brick, not the siding part. It's built in the siding, it's built into the site. Because that sort of above the sink,

Taylor and Rex  1:31  
it's built into the siding, because yeah, that's that's the only part of the the outside where we have siding does not break.

Paul McAlary  1:39  
Okay, so then how about to the right of your

Taylor and Rex  1:44  
feet? Is your window? No. Because the edge of the window is Brick. So below the window, and to the if you're standing in the kitchen, at the sink to the left is brick on the outside to the right is exciting and below the window. Exciting.

Paul McAlary  2:01  
Okay. So the reason I'm asking this is what sort of is counterintuitive to homeowners, is how much stuff costs and in relation to how much it might improve your design. So you have a bunch of issues with your layout. And certainly, some people would splurge on cabinetry, other people might splurge on appliances, some people might get very expensive countertops, those splurges aren't really going to affect the overall value of your home very much. However, if I were to move a window, that might totally change what your design might look like. And it might not be very expensive if we're not into the brick, and it's only the siding. Generally, is this a freestanding home. So you're not part of a community that's not going to allow you to move a window or it's not like a condo community or so.

Taylor and Rex  3:00  
Yeah, no HOA or anything.

Paul McAlary  3:03  
Yeah, I mean, if you don't have any of that move in a window, if it's in the siding, even if the siding is discolored over time, or whatever, usually you could steal siding from one part of your house to reuse right in this location, and then put the new siding that you might buy that hasn't hasn't faded over time or something like that behind the bush, or behind your air conditioning unit or behind some area that's much less noticeable. But that's one of the problems that you have with your kitchen is that the architect that designed the space, didn't know anything about kitchens, and, and he put the sink all the way towards the corner of the room, which is really a sort of a bad place for the sink. The first design that you have is concentrating every single solitary thing in the kitchen around that sink. So that you really have created a sort of a silly, congested clog, where people are at the refrigerator, they're opening the refrigerator door, bumping into the people that are standing at the stove, the person standing at the stove is banging into the person that's at the sink, these appliances and things are not spread out. So really, when we design something, what I mean what we're trying to do is the ideal triangle between the center point of your sink your stove in your refrigerator, in a well designed kitchen is a gigantic number compared to what you have. It's supposed to be between 19 and 26 feet, you probably have nine, right or eight or something in this triangle. So you've actively trying to fix this in your design, you know instinctively that get these things farther apart than they are but you're still All leaving things to close, like in your design, your refrigerator still is encroaching on your sink, every time somebody goes to the refrigerator, they're going to be opening the refrigerator door and be in the way of somebody that's trying to stand at the sink. And if anything, we want the refrigerator to be the thing that separated from your sink and your stove, we don't want you to have to walk across the room to get to your stove. So every time you're dripping, something that your vegetables that you've washed, or whatever, ideally, we want to sort of get your, your sink, and your stove, on the same countertop. So you can be working at that countertop, and the refrigerator is the thing that we want to get over where you have this stove. So that being said, probably the best layout that I can think of for your home would be first to move my sink down by moving the window away from the corner, so that you when you're standing at your sink, you want to have maybe a dishwasher on one side of you and a double trash can pull out on the other side of you, so that you can scrape something off into the trash and then put the dish in the dishwasher. And you can't really do that because the architect foolishly put the sink towards the corner. I mean, he's in preventing you from having a normal kitchen, because you can't have these things that other people have on either side of your sink. So if we move your sink down in that direction, that's the first thing that's going to help you. And then what we want to do is we ideally, we want to have your stove on the wall, where it is now where you have the refrigerator staying in your design, that's a better place for the stove, so that you'll have like maybe a countertop on the left side of your stove. And then as we move your sink farther down, you're gonna have more and more and more countertop in between your stove in your sink. So we really want to move your sink pretty far down. In fact, I would keep the L that you have sort of the way you have it, but just move the sink as far as possible towards that U shaped kitchen. And then we're going to put the refrigerator opposing it so that people going to the refrigerator can walk down and I'll get to the refrigerator, they're not in the work area proper. And you have the most amount of countertop in between your sink and your stove. Do you follow in? Well, that so far?

Taylor and Rex  7:36  
Yeah, that's awesome.

Paul McAlary  7:39  
And then your table is going in front of the other window. That's where your table is. Um,

Taylor and Rex  7:45  
we don't have anything in front of that other window, we have our dining room table on the other side of the stairs. Okay, we have our living room, dining room and kind of an open concept on the other side.

Paul McAlary  7:55  
So what are you using all that extra space for now?

Taylor and Rex  7:59  
Right now it's nothing. So in the new design, we were going to remove that closet to kind of open up the flow. And we're going to put a mudroom wall on the wall by the door that had suits towards the rest of the house. And so that was kind of just the end of the windows like more of an entryway like opening area.

Paul McAlary  8:21  
So I mean, it's giant, it's a gigantic entryway opening area. Right? So how about that window? How low is that window, the window over your sink? I assume is above the level of the countertop. So

Taylor and Rex  8:36  
the window the other window is two feet and six, almost seven inches up. So the counter, the countertop actually stops at the window because the window drops below the countertop height.

Paul McAlary  8:49  
Okay. And then the brick. Yeah, the this window is sort of cut into the brick. What is the brick stone below it?

Taylor and Rex  8:58  
Like two inches above the brick? Oh, good. So that lendo fits fully and deciding.

Paul McAlary  9:04  
Okay, well now this is wonderful. So now, what we'll do, I mean, you're also in Denver, by the way, is an incredibly expensive area. And that's one of the reasons why we haven't really found companies that sort of fit what we think are good companies that would do good designs and actually sell like we do we sell everything from very reasonable well made cabinetry all the way up to the most expensive cabinetry money can buy. And that business model shouldn't be a weird one. Because the less expensive cabinets that we sell are very little work. I mean, we're not doing incredible amounts of design work. They're very quick to design and easy to sell. And then the really complicated kitchens with a really expensive custom cabinetry. Sometimes that can be you know, I don't know about 100 hours but dozens and Dozens and dozens of design time with customers refining things and doing all kinds of creative customization to their cabinets and other things. I mean, yes, we they're much, much more expensive. But the amount of time we're forced to spend with a customer is so much more that we don't really make that much less money per hour on an inexpensive kitchen than we make on an expensive one. And so, that's the kind of cabinet company or dealer that we're trying to find when we're recommending places. And in Denver, it really sort of seems like anybody that's going to be good at designing kitchens, wants to sell you incredibly expensive cabinetry.

Taylor and Rex  10:42  
So that we found and challenge,

Paul McAlary  10:46  
right, so that was the challenge in Denver. And that's the similar challenge that you have also in Los Angeles. And then the other challenge is, when you're spoiled, and you get all these people that are willing to spend all this money, because they don't have any other opposite opportunities, it actually dumbs down how good the designers are. And so the designers in Denver and in Los Angeles tend to be not particularly good. Because it they're not in a competitive challenged environment, where they're able to learn a lot, a lot of times we learn a lot by selling different kinds of cabinets. And knowing more about cabinetry, these people are just looking to, for expensive people that they can just do what the other people want, and then charge them large amounts of money. So that's going to be one of your challenges, is trying to find a cabinet dealer that sells decent cabinets that aren't that expensive. But the reason I'm bringing this up is it certainly makes no sense. Not moving the one window down and raising the other window up so that you can have the countertop for your kitchen come down a little bit farther to get under the window. And then when you turn the corner, you can have seating for at a bar area that actually has a view out that window, right. And that will be way better and not very expensive. You know the cost of these replacing these windows. So you get a nice window and each window is $300. And the bigger window is two windows that are $300 each, you have $1,000 In Windows, you have a little bit of a siding, and then the construction charge, but you're just redoing siding. So it can't be more than a couple of $1,000 to do all of that work installing the windows and the siding and everything else. So I mean, that's $3,000 Often you just upgrade just the door style in the kitchen, to a little bit more expensive door style. And that's $3,000. Certainly if you go from a less expensive cabinet brand in your kitchen that has a little bit more cabinetry, it may be in one of the less expensive brands that we carry. That would be something like with the wall cabinets and everything else, something like $12,000 or something like that. And cabinetry. If you upgraded to the next most expensive brand that we carry, that's still pretty reasonable. That would be maybe 17,000. If you've got any kind of custom cabinets from us, that might be $34,000. All for the same cabinetry that's all constructed to last the same amount of time. So shockingly different large numbers of differences in stuff that you're paying, and we haven't even talked about are you going to splurge and get more expensive appliances or less expensive appliances, those changes will be big numbers versus this $3,000 number of moving the windows that's going to fix the fact that the architect that designed this space, wasn't very knowledgeable, at least about kitchens. You know, the all of those things that I know are what I would do. And then maybe I can hand draw this for you so you can sort of see what I'm talking about. But I would probably put when you're looking at your design where you have the stove, that sort of by that doorway, I would put maybe a pantry cabinet first than the refrigerator with a cabinet over the top of it that would be coming all the way out to be even with the pantry and then a panels to build the refrigerator into cabinetry and then have a bunch of strike outs up after that that you could be using as a bar area as a coffee area as whatever you would want. And then just extend your kitchen a little bit farther down so that it turns into the same kind of you you have now but it's a you that just ends up under the window so that when you're sitting there you have a view and you have way way more countertop and your sink will have all of this countertop between the stove and the sink. Because the window for the sink is moving down, and then the other window is moving up.

Taylor and Rex  15:05  
So you would still have some sort of a peninsula,

Paul McAlary  15:09  
and you would have some sort of Peninsula. You know how big that Peninsula sorta can possibly be, which isn't very long. Because you encountered it yourself. You made the peninsula coming from the other side, that you can't have it come too far down, because then it's getting too close to the other countertop, right? Yeah. So your peninsula of looking at your design, it looks like you're going to have a 345 foot long peninsula, which could comfortably sit two on the back side. And if you wanted to get a little bit fancy, you could also have an overhang on the other side a little bit, so that you could fit three if you wanted to sit two people on the backside and one person sort of sitting into the walkway between what's going to be your bar area and your kitchen area.

Taylor and Rex  15:59  
That was the biggest thing that we were trying to figure out because we're limited with the width of the building. Yeah, we love making cookies together lots of pastries and dumplings. And like that communal sitting around a counter is very big for us.

Paul McAlary  16:16  
And then the other room that's open, you're using that other room as both your dining area and your living room area.

Taylor and Rex  16:23  
Yes. So

like catty corner to the kitchen is like the living room area where our couches are, and then directly across from the kitchen where those two doorways go, that's where you would head into the where our table sit. With a two tables on the same wall as the fridge.

Paul McAlary  16:43  
Oh, your tables over there. So yeah, so then getting rid of the wall that you got rid of. That sort of helps the cause, right? You got rid of the wall. That's by the

Taylor and Rex  16:56  
way we haven't. We haven't gotten rid of the wall or the closet, I was just kind of our game plan to open it up. So we are open

Paul McAlary  17:03  
to I mean, you can keep I'm not talking about that wall. I'm talking about the other little wall that by the front door.

Taylor and Rex  17:10  
You're missing the doors, the ones? Yes, that's the on the side door. Yeah,

Paul McAlary  17:16  
that's the side door at the door by the refrigerator, in your drawer and you got rid of that wall. That's yeah,

Taylor and Rex  17:23  
so that's inside of the house, the entryway is the one on the wall by this like the one on the sink wall.

Paul McAlary  17:28  
Okay, but that doorway to when you get rid of that wall that's there, then that sort of opens your kitchen up more to your dining area. That was the

Taylor and Rex  17:39  
hope because it's right now it's super narrow, and you can't care like you're

Paul McAlary  17:43  
so that's a really good idea. And then what's going to get better about that is that instead of having the refrigerator where you put it, when we put your stove, on the wall where where your refrigerator was, then you'll have countertop and it will be open, there'll be open, you won't have the refrigerator is almost like a wall itself, especially when you put a cabinet on top of it. And then you have moldings or something going to the ceiling, it's closing up the space going into your kitchen. So if we get all the toll things off of that one wall, then when you're at your table, you'll have a clear shot straight down past your stove. If someone's working in the kitchen, they'll be able to communicate more easily with anybody that's at the table.

Taylor and Rex  18:32  
I love that. That was thank you that's a huge fix that like transplant was towards the goal that we wanted. That's awesome.

Paul McAlary  18:39  
Yeah. So I mean, I'll just why don't I just draw this up. But it you really have to wrap your head around the fact that it when you get prices, like for all of this cabinetry and stuff like that, if you shop around, it might be very hard. And I mean, it's very hard in Denver,

Taylor and Rex  18:58  
if you hit for that, because that's where we're struggling. We found the list where y'all rated the category lines, and we're hoping to use that. But y'all have any tips for a place like this, where they're trying to just upsell you to really, really expensive cabinetry lines, and we just want the best basics we can have.

Paul McAlary  19:19  
Yeah, so you know what we could do? If you're like, what are we looking at? We're 243. So we can make this alone. It can make this a long call, I guess. Let me just check and see how many people I got in line. Oh, good. I don't have anybody in backed yet. But I'm gonna walk you through essentially how we find the companies that we recommend. Because when we're recommending people around the country, we don't know these companies at all. Yeah, the way that we do it, we first go to house.com because House does a great job if you're a kitchen cabinet place or a kitchen designer, and you're going to be a professional at all you have to have listing on how so you've probably been on house, right? Yes. So if we go to house, and we type in your zip code, everybody that's within 25 miles or 50 miles or whatever is going to come up. And then the first thing that we do in this process is we look at the designs of the companies that come up close to you, and see if they're making any obvious blunders and mistakes. If they're showing pictures of kitchens that don't work, or set people's houses on fire, or are incredibly problematic, then we would eliminate them as a potential person to send you to the shocking thing is just doing that eliminates 80% of the companies. So wow, now we're down to 20%. We have no idea about all the designers that work at the people that are left, we certainly know that the person posting the pictures knows how to design and knows what they're doing. But certainly some people in the company could be just starting out, we have designers that are newer designers working for us, and we help them and we you know, we give them advice, and we supervise their designing. But you know, if you find one of the more experienced people at this company, you are probably safe. As far as a designer is concerned, since at least the person that owns the company knows what good design is. So then we have to look at what brands have cabinets, these companies that are left carry. And that's where we had problems in Denver, finding companies that carried less expensive brands, we're going to take a shot again. And then once we find a company that carries less expensive brands, believe me, most of them will carry expensive brands. But we just want to find somebody that's got at least a middle of the road cabinet brand that they carry, and an expensive brand. So that we know that they're good designers, we know that they have the ability to design expensively, but we also know that they sell less expensive cabinets. And then finally, the last bit of criteria that we use, is we just want to make sure before we recommend this place to you that they get good reviews. Everybody gets good reviews on house, because the way you get a review generally on houses you're requested. So you don't really request reviews from people that are mad at you for some reason, right? So on how's everybody looks like a superstar. But once somebody is a customer's mad at you, they will go to Google. And they will let the world know that they're mad at you. We just have to then check Google and make sure that this place that we're sending you to is it getting all of their customers mad at them for one reason or another, they don't serve as their customers, they don't, they may be good designers. But they're obnoxious, they're whatever they they don't honor their warranties, whatever, we just kind of look at their reviews. So I gave you that whole background. So that teach a person to fish and you feed them for life. You know, give them a fish, you just give them one dinner, right? So you can you can try this on our own together. And then we'll see what we get. And then if I don't succeed, you know that you know the process, although you won't be an expert designer. So you'll have a difficult time critiquing what good design is. But the surprising thing is, if you look at the designs, and you think that they really look like good designs, you'll be right more than you're wrong. Okay, let's see, we're going to house first. And the first thing we're going to do is we're going to go to find professionals, then we're going to say kitchen and bathroom designers are the people we're looking for, because we want people that consider themselves designers first. And then we're gonna go it says locations within 50 miles, we'll do 50 miles, which is pretty far, but what the heck, and then what's your zip code?

Taylor and Rex  23:58  
80030.

Paul McAlary  24:01  
Okay, and let's see what comes up. So the other thing to know, when you're looking at house, every other place that comes up is an advertisement. You know, the first thing that comes up is Parcells design studio. There are a company that has nine reviews. So they really aren't that big a company probably. But the reason they're coming up first is that they paid for this ad. So the second company that comes up is sanctuary kitchen and bath design. They have 53 reviews. They are a much bigger company with a much bigger track record. They're coming up what would be called organically, right? So if you look at the things that are coming up on house, all the way to the right hand side, there'll be a little sign that says sponsored. And then the ones that aren't sponsored won't say that they'll just be blank layer, and every other one generally is I'm looking at your area, it's very interesting in your area, only one of them says sponsored. So most of these people aren't paying. So the first thing you want to do is just don't get the sponsored one, right? They're not first. They're not first for being good at anything. They're first because they're the only ones paying. So we look at sanctuary kitchen and bath design, we'll take a look at their kitchens. So we're looking at their pictures of their kitchens and baths. We haven't set anybody on fire yet. You'd be surprised. Many of them designs, you know, are terrible. So these look to 12 of their projects. I would say these people are pretty good designers, all of their designs, look professional. We've probably gone through this thing before. And we know they get 4.9 on houses so their house customers love them. But as we said that's less meaningful. But let's go to their website now. And we'll look at the brands that they carry nickels, cabinets, Greenfield cabinets, Belmont sight line. We just looked look at our cabinet ratings now. That's probably how you're found. That's right. By the reviews we do for cabinets.

Taylor and Rex  26:18  
Yep, that list is awesome.

Paul McAlary  26:22  
Okay, sightline Greenfield rainforests we don't rate Greenfield but let's see if we can go to Greenfield No, it's pretty expensive. I Greenfield is custom alright we got Greenfield that's custom. Belmont I know is pretty expensive. Nichols cabinets. I don't know what that is. That's frameless cabinetry. That looks not custom. But and then sight line sight line well either that's definitely it looks like it's a frameless brand. Not that doesn't look that expensive. Do you know what the difference between framed and frameless cabinets are.

Taylor and Rex  27:15  
But frameless when you open it up you don't see your frame. But when it's

Paul McAlary  27:20  
yeah, it's just like a box. It's a box with doors on it. So people will also call it European style cabinetry in Europe, unless you've got a lot of money. Wood is very expensive in Europe. So they make their cabinets most of the time. That's where IKEA came from. They make their cabinets out of particle board boxes with doors on them. And they you know, European cabinetry is really generally sort of less durable than a framed cabinet. If you're not rough on things, it can be fine. But it looks like syteline cabinets is not that expensive a brand. But it is also a frameless brand. So it looks like the framed cabinet brands at sanctuary are a little expensive. They have one brand that's less expensive than these other brands. It's a four so Belmonts not that expensive. Oh and it's a frameless line to around in our neighborhood. We don't sell very many frameless cabinets they tend to frameless cabinets look much much better. The more contemporary a kitchen you you're getting. So was there a kind of style that you liked.

Taylor and Rex  28:40  
We do like that's I think what's challenging is we liked the IKEA style. Wanted durability don't want to do this again.

Paul McAlary  28:49  
Right? Well, do you have to have kids

and stuff which they were on thing.

So the frameless cabinets The problem is, is since there's not a wood frame on the front of the cabinet, you have the ability to like let's say you open the door too far, you'll rip the hinges out of the side of the cabinet. And it's more difficult to replace. But companies are starting to invent ways that they can repair these things. They have like flat metal, like patching things that go on the sides of cabinets that I've just seen recently actually, that help people restore their frameless cabinetry after they've been damaged. But you know when you have a framed cabinet these the solid wood frame that's going around the cabinet, the doors are attached to it the tracks where the The drawers are attached to it, the cabinets themselves the front's are being drilled and screws are attaching each cabinet to each other adnate one and a half inches of wood to one and a half inches of wood. So it's it's definitely a more durable way to make cabinetry but if Yeah, like the IKEA kind of style where things are more contemporary and doors are slab doors like that are very more modern. We don't have animals on the doors and everything else. You probably want to get frameless cabinetry anyway because it just looks so much better. Slab door looks so much better on a frameless cabinet, and then probably the sightline cabinet company that displays carries, we'll have an upgrade to apply wood side. You like the slab doors, right? You like contemporary doors is that we Yeah.

Taylor and Rex  30:36  
We also we've gone back and forth between we're trying to go for more timeless and so if the concern with going with a slab is that it's very in right now. But will it stay in where shakers are pretty tested? Like Shaker door has been? You know, people love that for years, it seems.

Paul McAlary  30:54  
Yeah, I mean Shaker Doors, but I would say that the slab doors, they're not actually popular. They've been banging on the door to be popular for a long time for 50 years. They're very popular with architects and interior designers so and with some customers in the cities. And in high rise units. Those are the places where most of the slab door styles get sold. But across, you know, the United States, certainly in the rural areas that nobody, no one's buying those at all. In our neck of the woods. We're sort of a more traditional affluent community, a very only probably 5% of our sales are slam doors. And if we're selling them, they're almost always downtown in the city of Philadelphia, in a high rise in a high rise unit. And then if you go out in the country near us, they're not that popular. It's always been a niche that they've occupied for 60s for really 60 years, a slab door style has occupied that niche. It just has never converted. It's it's been popular among architects and interior designers and design magazines. You see them in design magazines constantly, but it doesn't take off right. So so many companies have gone bankrupt on the bet that it's just around the corner that they're going to take off the Shaker door style unfortunately, has been the most popular doorstop probably for 15 years now. All kitchen designers are getting a little bit tired of designing kitchens and white Shaker Doors. But the good news is isn't a white Shaker Door. You'll have options online mean really online we think is a bad idea generally because you don't have a kitchen designer helping you but if you're you call into our show you let us critique the design and help you a little bit you might be able to get some of these less expensive cabinetry if you can't find a place you can try sanctuary kitchens, they have frameless cabinets that are not going to be outrageously expensive. And if I look at the next closest places to do you design Alec Hart doesn't sound crazy expensive. Her website is a House website. So that means that she's she's really more of a designer houses giving her a free website which is actually broken at the minute this minute so probably not a good place to send it are Vanda Colorado how far away

Taylor and Rex  33:30  
are that is right next door is super close.

Paul McAlary  33:33  
This company says distributors, distributors, screams more, less expensive cabinetry than design oriented. Let's just see what their kitchens look like. They have almost no kitchens. They have six projects that they show. Let's look at their cabinet lines. This might be good. Oh, there we go. Oh Shiloh. I hate Shiloh aspect. They have Timberlake we carry Timberlake. Timberlake is if you were at a Home Depot, you also have home centers, right? So yeah, you could come up with a good design and Timberlake is a little bit more expensive than the least expensive brands that are out there. We carry it's about 20% More than fab you would probably the most popular, inexpensive brand that we carry. But it would be the same thing if you had a Home Depot Timberlake would be American Woodmark. It's the same brand just renamed. If you were at a Lowe's store, it would be Shenandoah American Woodmark is really the original company that Home Depot has Timberlake is the name that they sell to private dealers. Shenandoah would be at Lowe's, this company ce que de Colorado kitchen distributors. Just the fact that they carry Timberlake probably means that they have to be competitively priced, because customers are going to figure out that they could maybe go to Home Depot and Lowe's to, so they might be okay. So why don't we just do a search, they get great reviews. So it's called Colorado kitchen distributors is their name CK D, which is also certified kitchen designer, I'll give them credit for getting a logo that at least other kitchen designers are going to notice. And then let's see what we can do here. They got a bunch of reviews on house. But it must be they must be very small in that they're not coming up with Google reviews. But they get good reviews on their house page. And we know it's hard in Denver, and they carry Timberlake, they could be a place that you could try out. Also home centers. mean, why don't you take that as a starting point, you can sort of, you know how I'm doing this. So you're sort of yeah, you can sort of test it out, this place is definitely not bad. It's only got he's only got six kitchens, on his house page. And none of them are problematic in any way. It's not like a good sampling got to be some kind of very tiny place. Or maybe I'm not really sure what kind of place it is, you know, it doesn't come up on the Maps listing on Google, for whatever reason, but I'll send you a hand drawing of what I would do with your kitchen. So you can sort of analyze that with the Windows moved, and the one window moved up and the other window moved down. And you can sort of see what you think about that. Maybe try one of these places, either the Colorado kitchen distributors, or a little bit more expensive, probably sanctuary kitchen and bath design.

Speaker 3  36:44  
Thank you so much, Paul, I really appreciate all of your insight and knowledge and just wisdom in this space. Thank you for taking the time with us. So helpful. Amazing.

Paul McAlary  36:55  
Well, you're welcome. And then once somebody puts the layout on the computer, and you can see it in 3d, you'll better understand what you like, what you don't like. And all these places are, they're all going to have computer aided design, most kitchen designers designed in 2020. So you'd see you'll see in 2020, the problem with a Lowe's or Home Depot is just the designers are going to tend to be certainly in your area too much less experienced, because they're going to be making way less money probably than the designers at some of these expensive places. So maybe what you can do is call the Home Depot or Lowe's near you or around you and see hey, who's your most experienced designer that's working there and try to at least work with one of the people that has been doing it for a long time. Maybe if you're really lucky. They'll have been a kitchen designer and they're retired now and working part time for a home center or something like that.

Taylor and Rex  37:57  
That's a great idea.

Paul McAlary  37:58  
Okay, shortly, I'll send you a hand drawing waded out and redone and you can do what you will with it. Thank you so so much. We're so excited. Okay, good talking to you. Great day. Bye.

Mark Mitten  38:13  
Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality, custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai