Mark Mitten 0:02 Are you working with an inexperienced Kitchen Designer? is filling your kitchen with teeny dysfunctional 24 inch cabinets? You better call Paul. Paul McAlary 0:16 Hi, Debbie. Can you hear me? Debbie 0:18 Yes, I can hear you, Paul. Paul McAlary 0:20 Welcome to better call, Paul. Yeah, so I'm looking at your plans? Is there anything you sort of want to go over? I mean, I read your email to anything that you want to sort of tell me before we or do you want me just to sort of start talking about it? And maybe in critiquing it a little bit? Debbie 0:37 I mean, you can start at the you know, my main concern is whether you think the refrigerator location is acceptable? Paul McAlary 0:46 Well, it's a little bit problematic. I was just looking at the pictures that you sent. What you've got, that is a double oven cabinet, you have that one wall that you have a little arrow on your design, it says the wall is over here. That's a double oven cabinet. I take it. Yes. That's in between where the wall was put in and where the wall was? And do you have any idea what's in that wall? Or why you would want that wall? Debbie 1:14 Well, right now, there is a double oven there. And the pantry. Paul McAlary 1:19 Mm hmm. But the wall that comes out is part of the pantry is that what it is, the wall Debbie 1:25 is actually on eat, there are walls on either side of the garage entry door. Paul McAlary 1:33 Any reason why? Speaker 3 1:35 Well, there had been a washer and dryer there next to the garage door. But we're moving that upstairs so that we can create cabinet space. Let's say if I'm facing the garage door would be to the right of the garage door for you know, additional storage and bigger pantry items that we don't use every day. Speaker 2 1:57 The first thing I would say is if you're ripping out the pantry and everything else, I would just get rid of the walk that walk completely. It's just clogging up your work area, right? Speaker 3 2:08 So it is so they're removing half the wall, they can't take out the whole wall because of some plumbing fixtures that are in the wall. And it's partly a retaining wall as well. So they can cut it back by half. Speaker 2 2:27 I guess as long as they can get it in back of the face of the cabinet's, it would be a good thing. It would look, it would look a lot better. Speaker 3 2:36 Yeah, so it does not there where the designer drew it, it's actually located to the left of the garage, see Speaker 2 2:44 where you drew the arrow. So that's much assuming that's the case, the first thing, critiquing your design, just generally a couple of things. One is you never generally want your cooktop on an island. And if you do have you cooked up on an island, there's all kinds of rules that you have to follow. None of which you're following here. You have to have plenty of countertop in back of the cooktop. And on either side of the cooktop, just so that people walking past don't set themselves on fire. Right? Right, you should have some form of ventilation to so that you get rid of the smoke in the grease that right when you're cooking, because otherwise your whole house is going to be coated with grease and smoke over time, depending on how often you cook. But you know, if you cook at all, any kind of frequency, your whole house is going to get sticky. I go into people's houses don't have hoods, and everything that you touch in their house is sticky. You definitely want to have some kind of ventilation. So I Speaker 3 3:51 tell you about that. One is first of all, the drawing is not correct. The island is much larger than that, then it appears the picture that that we've put together, I don't know why she drew it so small, and goes to the right side of that island. And it's much smaller. The cooktop I'm sorry, goes much farther to the right of the island and takes up much less space. I know what you're saying that there has to be nine inches between the cooktop and the person who's going to sit there and there should be well there really Speaker 2 4:31 has to be 18 inches if a person is going to actually sit there. Okay, you can't have nine it's got to be 18 inches a countertop, you know, and that's because a plate and the glass or that for someone reaching for the glass. You don't want them burning their hand. Yeah, well, you have a lot of requirements. And just in general, doing a kitchen is all about trade offs. There's almost no good trade off with the cooktop in the island. You're worried about the location of the refrigerator. Peter, what jumps out to me first is your cooktop possibly in your plan? Have you bought your appliances yet? Speaker 3 5:08 No. And you know, I sent you in the email. My thought was, and I'm, you know, I'm open to what you're saying, of course, I, you're the expert, but I was thinking about one of those venting fixtures. It's the future row, 23 inch Halo islands ventilation fixture. And it's kind of a big fan as it is a ductless. But it does have a carbon filter. But it looks beautiful. It looks like a light fixture. Speaker 2 5:43 It it's mounted over the ceiling, right? So it's certainly nothing that works well. Right. Okay, so especially if it's ductless, to even the ones that are very powerful, that go into the joists in the ceiling. mean, they don't work very well, because they're a long way away from the cooktop. So if you do have something that's ventless, you'll get rid of some of the grease and some of the the smoke, but you definitely won't get rid of the smells. So if you're cooking fish, whatever you're cooking, none of that stuff gets put outside. So, you know, I look at your kitchen. And the first thing I think is because customers aren't designers, they don't really about function, and they don't think about style. First, they just think about sort of the appliances that they want first. And it just sort of human nature, that when the design itself isn't something that you're critiquing it, just want the stuff that you want, and you don't realize that you hurt yourself with the design. So the reason I say this is your kitchen would be so much more functional. If for example, you got rid of the double ovens, and put a range on the wall with a double ovens are, you know, that's a very normal, functioning space, where you have all this countertop on either side of the place that you're cooking, you'll have one oven, if it's a range, you'll have one oven directly underneath your range. So if you're cooking Thanksgiving dinner or something like that, you're not taking a heavy turkey out of the oven that's a little bit higher up and trying to walk across the room and get it to the top of the cooktop before you run into somebody else or anything else. And then you could certainly put another oven, if you really wanted to ovens in a different location, or in your island, if you wanted to, it's really sort of important to have a lot of countertop on either side of your cooktop. Because that's where your work, that's where you're cutting the chunk. And that's where you have your spices and everything set up. Even if your island is a lot bigger, you know, you gotta leave approaching three feet of space on either side of it. So you could add three feet is still not going to have that much countertop and you would have also the problem of the cooktop not having a good ventilation system. Whereas once it goes on that wall is that that's an that's the wall to your garage, that whole wall along there whether the door is going. Yeah, so the easiest thing to do. I'm just starting to see how high your ceilings are. Yeah, your ceilings look like they're eight feet tall. Is that true? Yes they are. So you wouldn't really do what they've done to in that picture was put a single molding on top of your cabinets to reach the ceiling. That doesn't give you a new play in your ceiling being even a quarter of an inch off the level. So usually when we go to the ceiling with cabinetry, we have a two piece crown molding that's one flat piece and then a crown that rides up and down on the face of that piece. And that's how we adjust for people ceilings being a little bit off a level but it also gives us the advantage that if you put a range or even the cooktop on that length, the countertop we're at double ovens are now you'll be able to go up into the area on top of your cabinets and then went outside over the top of the cabinets to the back of the house. So okay if you if you if it was you know if you had a wall cabinet over the stove and he kind of Hood underneath your moldings, the air would just go up into the hood would go up into the cavity between the moldings in the ceiling and then it would go out a duck in between this cabinets in the ceilings out the back of your house. You know now we got your all the smoke and all the grease and everything else just quickly being sucked up by either a hood or a microwave hood or any kind of ventilation system that you want. And then it getting put up and then going out of the house and you could really pick a nice hood and it won't be hanging down in for on top of your over the top of your stove over the top of your cooktop in the island, your island then could also have people sit at it, and they wouldn't have to worry about getting burned or anything else. And you'd have a big, wide open island that people could sit at without any of those problems. That makes sense. And you could also, you know, put your microwave underneath the island, or if you wanted a second oven, you could make it a speed oven. So a speed oven would be an oven, that's a convection oven and a microwave combined. And that way, you get a second oven, and you get your microwave underneath the countertop all in one. And it's actually a work area. So your whole island, it's a second work area with the microwave and the oven in there. And then you're you have a range, which if you got a normal size range, like a 30 inch range, all of a sudden your cost of your appliances are going to be a couple of $1,000 less. So not design, I'm sort of describing to you work a lot better, and I think look better, and function a lot better. It also cost less. Because, you know, once you get a double oven cabinet, that's the most expensive cabinet in your kitchen, it's probably you know, even an inexpensive cabinet brand. It's you've $1,200 or something like that. The contractors gotta cut the ovens out of the opening for the cabinets, it sort of gets complicated. You're buying double ovens, and you're also buying a cooktop. Now if you get a free standing range, you can get a nice 30 inch sliding range for $1,000. And your double ovens, we're going to cost you three or four. And then you're going to have the cooktop for 1500. And then you're going to have to maybe buy a microwave, I guess your microwave could go over your dough in your double oven cabinet. But if you wanted a second oven, you would have had to pay two and a half $1,000 for that. But now we're sort of combining appliances. So you're always gonna save a couple of $1,000. Speaker 3 12:05 Yeah, not to mention the ventilation fixture is about $4,000. Yeah, Speaker 2 12:10 and you got a ventilation fixture that doesn't really work very well. I mean, really, it's a ventilation fixture that's sort of been designed around sort of people wanting what they want. And then you sort of get it. But it's not like we really think that it works well. Right. So So you all have this the really inexpensive fan and blower that you're going to get that's going to be on the wall that's going to vent everything outside, that's going to capture everything because it's going to be much closer, it's going to be maybe 69 inches off of the countertop, it's going to be pretty low and it's going to capture all the grease and all the smoke. And it's going to be completely 100% effective and inexpensive. And then you've got this really powerful thing that's going over the top of your island. And it makes sure right so the junks up your island to with this cooktop that could have been pristine, clean. And then it doesn't work that well either. And it doesn't even. Okay, that's a frog's leap in the right direction. Speaker 3 13:13 You know, that all makes sense. When you add up everything that you've listed does seem like a bad plan to keep the cooktop there in the island. Speaker 2 13:23 Yeah. And then the other thing too is like even just think about how much we one of the ways we sort of evaluate how well people's kitchens are designed is by how they use their countertop. And if if we design their kitchen, so all of their countertop is getting used effectively, it's a really good thing. It means that a really badly designed kitchen has the cooktop and the sink right next to each other. And then there's just a little tiny cooktop where people are trying to cut and chop and get everything done. If we get your cooktop on that long countertop with double ovens are now you'll be working on both sides of the cooktop. There'll be a reason for people to be over there. I don't know what reason would be to be working over there. All that countertop that's on the right side of the sink going all the way down to a Levin's isn't close to the place that you want to be getting to which is really the cooktop so probably be just spending almost all your time cutting and chopping and working on the island which isn't going to have that much countertop to it when you got a cooktop in the middle of it. Whereas now when we move the cooktop and the ovens or the range if you're getting a range to that wall where the ovens are, now you got all this countertop in between the sink and the cooktop for the range that you can be cutting and chopping on and using and cleaning and doing all kinds of stuff and then going right over to the cooktop because it's to the right of you and then the older countertop that whatever countertop usually we leave at least 18 inches that you have on the right side of the cooktop or the The range, that countertop has plenty of space. So you can turn the handles of the pots out. It's not going to be knocked or hit by anybody's elbows that might be walking past your cooktop when it was in the island. So it just the whole thing just sort of functions a lot better. And then yeah, now I don't mind as much about your refrigerator to although I'm looking, and you got the, you only got 17 inches. Look, I guess the next question I should ask is, where's your table going? Speaker 3 15:33 Your dining? Yeah, a dining table is gonna, the downstairs will be one large open space. And the living room would be on the opposite wall from the kitchen. And then right in the center, I want to put an expandable oval dining table. Speaker 2 15:51 So that's going to be like in back of the cooktop Island, sort of. Speaker 3 15:56 Yeah. Just so you see where the garage door is, right? If we continue going down that wall, it'll be kind of right in the middle there. Uh huh. So if you see, I guess the better way to tell would be to look at the page three that I sent you, which is the architects. Speaker 2 16:19 Yeah, I'm looking at now. So it's between your living room and your kitchen is where the table? Exactly. So the one other thing that I might sit mention is, I see the wall that that's there in the picture to the from the architect's drawing. If that wall is staying, in the architect's drawing, it's actually sort of a little bit to the left of where the double ovens are in this picture. That the designer? Speaker 3 16:51 Yeah, the half. Yeah, because there's a bathroom there to the left of the garage entry. Speaker 2 17:00 I'm talking about the wall that we're they're thinking about making half as big, right? It's actually not, it's not right next to the door to the garage. It's like a foot down from the door from the garage. So maybe they have you have coat hooks there or something like that. Now. Unknown Speaker 17:18 There's a little cupboard in there now. Paul McAlary 17:21 Yeah, there's a little cupboard in there now. So this is another thing that I like better. But certainly, I think we've improved your design a whole lot. But you do. But another possibility in your kitchen would be? What if we moved your garage door? A foot? So the garage door was all the way up against that wall that has the cupboard or whatever on it, right? Speaker 2 17:46 Is that a closet? Or what was it? Was it you said washers and dryers that were to the left when you came in the garage? Before? Debbie 17:53 Yes, definitely. Yes. Speaker 2 17:56 So it sounds like this plan that you have here is not actually the one that architects drawing that they made some changes, because they have that being a shallow closet. In the the drawing I'm looking in the architect's drawing I'm sort of looking at. But if there was enough room, you could move the garage door, you know, you have plenty of room for your for the the range along that whole long countertop. So you could move your door a little bit down. And you could put a pantry next to the garage door and then your refrigerator so that all your refrigeration and everything else in your pantry and everything else was sort of all in the kitchen area, if you want it to, or I don't object to where you have it now. That's sort of the kitchen. Debbie 18:46 Oh, good. Good to know. Speaker 2 18:47 I guess the other thing I'm looking at is the other little island that you've got in the other area. So that's just like a bar area. That's what that can that's Speaker 3 19:03 we're going to it as a beverage center with a little prep thing or bar saying the top bar perhaps and a little wine cooler. Speaker 2 19:16 So I'm just wondering why is the last cabinet on the left in the architect's drawing and in your drawing? Like show shallow. Like when you get to the end, like oh, yeah, there's a 12 Yeah. Speaker 3 19:32 So we were going to put open shelving there with maybe a coffee bar underneath. Yeah. But I'm thinking more open shelving, just to have a lot of counters in there already. Well, islands. Speaker 2 19:51 If you have open shelving, they're open ship. You can't have open shelving, unless it sort of really goes all the way down to the floor. Right, because I want to ever create a space where you know, the you're standing at the countertop, you drop something off the countertop, it goes underneath the shelves, you reach down, you pick it up, and then you stand up and you hit your head on the ship, right? Your head. So I mean, it sounds funny, but it's actually so much more dangerous than people would ever think. In the construction business, the carpenters hang the wall cabinets first, usually, and then do the base cabinets. And there's a whole lot of carpenters in this world or that are not in this world anymore. Because they died or on the good side just fractured their skull, I no one that was blinded personally. But he stood up and they hit their head on the corner of the heat, I guess ruptured his optic nerve or something, but he hit his head on the corner of the cabinet that was above his head. So it same thing with shelving. If you're putting shelving in, you don't want to ever just have the shelving come all the way down so that people can't get their heads accidentally underneath anything. Right. And then, yeah, I think all good. The one thing I would just say too, is that the designer that did this made the overhang on your little second island by your coffee bar, she made the overhang or he made the overhang only nine inches deep. And that really never makes any sense. People think that maybe they're saving a little space if they make the overhang nine inches. But also there are no stools that aren't the seat of the stool isn't at least 12 inches, so your mind doesn't have the overhang to get your legs under since the stool itself will be sticking out past the nine inches. So you're not really saving any space. So it's just sort of a something that people do when they're not thinking through the you know how countertops work, that you're always you want want your countertop overhangs to always be, you know, normally it's really easy to do them 12 inches, and that's the most convenient for a person, six feet tall and under. And you don't need any brackets or braces or supports when you do an overhang that's 12 inches. So it makes everybody's life easy. And the stools themselves are at least that deep that you're put your butt on. So there's no point. And if you've made the countertop shallower, the stools are just jutting out and they look they look funny and you're not getting the advantage of the countertop. So it should be 12 inches. So just make the overhangs. 12 inches whenever whenever you're doing an overhang make it 12 inches. That's sort of the rule. Okay. Speaker 3 22:33 Do you think an additional barstool to the left of that island so that it's the chair is facing the other way would be a nice idea? Well, I think Speaker 2 22:45 even in your kitchen, too, you have to choose. I think I've said it on the podcast a couple of times. Nobody likes sitting like ducks in a row. So when you have an overhang on two sides of an island, the first person sits down, the second person wants to sit down next to them, they'll always sit down on the end so that they can be the other person. If you want to go to a restaurant and ask for a seat and they said you had to sit at the bar. Everybody wants to sit at the corner of the bar so you can be having your dinner and be at least sort of facing the other person. So the corners of the bars fill up first. And then the straight areas of the bars fill up last. So always good to overhang if you want to have it be more communal, and you want people to be able to talk to each other then overhang a overhanging island on two sides. Speaker 3 23:37 Yeah, I think that would be nice. And I think there's plenty of room there to Speaker 2 23:41 do you have plenty or you have plenty of room for that. And then Speaker 3 23:47 another question I have put the dishwasher to the left of the kitchen sink it should be on the right if we're right handed right Speaker 2 23:55 now actually, it's different than you think we get that all the time. People that are left handed, sort of think that their dishwasher should go on the other side that is normally where it is in their own kitchen I shouldn't say normally. Really what you want is you want your dishwasher on the side that it makes it easy to one load. So with your dishwasher that they have now on the left, when the dishwasher door is down, you can take the plates and the glasses and everything else. They're all going to be stored in all the wall cabinets that are going around to the right. So if your dishwasher on the right, then it would be coming down so the in your way if you were at the sink or something to get at. So I think in this case it's better on the left. Also, you know the whole area you're working in where you're cutting and chopping and everything else you can be working in going to your cooktop and our design working there completely while somebody else is sitting at the sink and loading the dishes. So it works way better for you with your dish washer on your left in your design. But that's how we try to put the dishwasher doesn't matter if someone's right handed doesn't matter if someone's left handed, we're trying to put the dishwasher in the place where it's not in the way, and where it's easiest to unload and not have to get around it to get to the cabinets with the plates, and the glasses and everything else are going. Speaker 3 25:20 Okay, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of it that way. Speaker 2 25:23 One of the other customers I have coming up, she's worked so hard and so long, I can tell on her design, and she has reasons for all the things that she did. You know, as, as most people that work without a designer's help. But when you haven't faced everything, the reasons you come up with, usually, we just tell you one little bit of information, and we've just ruined the whole, the whole process that got you to arrive at that thing. So like everybody thinks there is no customer I've ever met, that doesn't think that there's a reason right handed left handed, why your dish where your dishwasher goes. But as a kitchen designer, we should be putting it in a place that makes life the easiest. So Speaker 3 26:06 and sometimes people don't want to know, because then it'll mess up their design. You know, it took me a little bit of, you know, I had to sort of wrap my mind around it, I'm going to talk to Paul, and he's going to critique lots of things, and I'm gonna have to make Speaker 2 26:23 it's still always your choice. That's why it's good working with the kitchen designer, we can't make people buy a kitchen they don't like, we just give them information. It's all trade offs. So you have to decide what's the things that yeah, some things don't work as well, some things work better. Some things look better, you know, all of these different things are just trade offs that everybody has to decide on. What you want to do is your job as the customer is to get all the information from us and us to give you valuable critiques. And then you just go off on your own and you pick the stuff that I want my cooktop in the middle of the island so that I can and I can face out into my living room and talk to people while I cook. And I'm okay with the fact that the room is going to get smoky and greasy. And it won't possibly work quite as well. That's your decision. We just give you that information. But for some people, it's going to be the whatever the downside is, is going to be worth it. So we just got to get. Speaker 3 27:21 Yeah, because you want to make a fully informed decision as much as possible. Speaker 2 27:25 That's what you're trying to do the information and you make the informed decision. Speaker 3 27:30 That's That's right. I just have one more question. Paul. There are a lot of cabinets there then in the corner on the right of the kitchen. Do you have any you see any red flags there? Has she made any doors the wrong size? Or? Or do you have any advice about how best to use the corner? webinar? I can't see exactly. Speaker 2 27:53 I guess, you know, I can't see. They don't have to You didn't send me a corner going around the corner. But you know, what I can tell just from the size of the cabinets is that it looks like there's a whole bunch of 24 inch cabinets in the design. And okay, yep, almost those almost are never used. She's obviously not very experienced to come up with this. Usually, if you want drawers for pots and pans or Tupperware or anything else, the minimum size of the drawers that you want with wise is 30 inches. So ideally, maybe you want a lazy susan in the corner of that corner between the sink and your stove. And then if I'm adding the numbers up correctly, you could have a 30 inch drawer base after the Lazy Susan, so that you had pots and pans and everything else just to your left of your stove, and then to the right of your stove. Whatever's left it looks like to me it might be you know, at least 18 inches or 24 inches, then that's another cabinet. And maybe ideally we're also trying to make the doors to the cabinets on either side of this. So all the same size. So once we get the exact dimensions, we sort of put the we try to get you the 30 inch pots and pans if it can get a little bit bigger, that's good to 33 inches 36 inches, but we're also trying to balance that all the doors on each side of the stove are all the same size. So it sort of looks symmetrical. That's sort of the next step. I think that you can't really critique this right now. Because we've if you do decide to change it and put the stove over on that wall, then you're going to reshuffle the deck as far as what cabinets going there. But here it's bad the way it is now because it's all these 24 inch cabinets and they're not wide enough for anything, you know, a 24 inch cabinet the inside of the drawer is 19 inches. And if you actually measure 19 inches, it's, it's not really a great size. If we only if it was a little bit smaller, it will maybe be good for cutlery and everything else. If it was a little bit wider, it would be great for pots and pans. If it was really big, it'd be great for storage and everything else but 24 is just sort of an in between size that we're trying to actually avoid. Speaker 3 30:30 Yeah, that makes good sense. Yeah, thank you for that. You know, I do have one more question. I think one thing I'm wanting to do is I'm thinking of using KraftMaid cabinets, and I'd like to mix the natural hickory with they have a high gloss white to have you know like kind of a shaker design for the hickory and a flat panel for the high gloss white. And I know you've talked a little bit about problems with flat panel and even maybe the high gloss so I just wanted to get your, your thoughts on on that. Speaker 2 31:07 Well, I mean the one thing I'd say is, I don't think you have any problems with the flat panel and KraftMaid it's a great cabinet line they're going to do that. But I don't know style wise, if I liked that combination of gloss and the hickory because the hickory is very rustic. Hickory has a very rustic kind of wood, you have to decide. So it is something that interior designers and some kitchen designers depends they really like to break the mold and mix things that don't generally go together. There's been this kitchen design award winning kitchens that had seven kinds of metal in them. So they had Wow, they had you know stainless steel appliances, tin, tin ceiling, copper, a copper hood, and brass and foot rests and black candles, and brushed chrome faucets and you know seven different kinds of metals all in one kitchen. And it was a $2,000 kitchen and it won an award. But it looked beautiful despite the fact that it had seven metals in it the seven just you know 10 years later someone's gonna be like what's going on here. So it's really your choice of the hickory and the gloss, door styles and even the hickory in the Shaker door which is more traditional and the gloss in the flat slab white which is definitely more contemporary is an in your face design mix that you know is mixing two styles that don't go together. Generally. It's bolder than you might realize you're being Speaker 3 32:56 okay, I like contemporary so what would a different would take care of that. Speaker 2 33:02 Yeah, so how about something really plain and boring, but would like maple so Maple is simple. It doesn't see hickory has stripes on it. You should look very kitchens and look hickory has the there'll be pieces of hickory in your doors, your solid wood or some craft made that will have black wood the color will be really dark brown and some will be really light and where the pieces are put together. It's very stripy. It's you know each piece of wood that the cabinets are being made of it's totally a different color from the one next to it. So that's what makes it very rustic. You see it log cabins. You see it in places like that. So if you gotten maple which is the wood that is the hardest and also the least likely to be damaged. And if that's what you're going to use on the bottom is the wood and the top will be the the white. Speaker 3 34:00 The countertops, I was thinking white with blue veins on the white cabinets and kind of a medium gray I was going to do with the wood cabinets. Speaker 2 34:11 So the wood cabinets will go on where for the island or I was going Speaker 3 34:14 to reverse things that is I was going to do the white gloss on the right Island and the wood on the left and then upper not upper and lower. I don't want to change those but if Island is wide on the right then the wood would be on the cabinetry. And on the left side. If the island is wood then the white gloss would be in the cabinetry. Speaker 2 34:41 I think all of that is fine. And if you did do the hickory, it works better in a bar area because it doesn't really get a kitchen area that's pretty rustic. But if you take a look at it, if you did the shaker in the mid April, it won't be as bold. But it's just now nothing sort of clashes. So you're not breaking convention. You're breaking big. You're breaking design Convention, which a lot of interior designers and some kitchen designers like to do, but it may wear on you over time. gret being that bowl. Speaker 3 35:27 That makes sense. I'm glad. I'm glad I asked you that question. We, we have been thinking of hickory for the floors, we were going to do a kind of a medium gray hickory throughout the whole downstairs. Speaker 2 35:40 Yeah, I mean, that's different though. Because that's your, and that's what you're walking on. And that's not like furniture. So it's a decorative thing. So I think the hickory is fine. Actually, in our bedroom. We have Cypress, which looks a lot like hickory, and it's really nice. I mean Oak has a lot of grain to it. That's the normal kind of flooring that you might have. Normally, if you didn't splurge a little bit, it will go with anything on the floor. In the cabinetry which are sort of like having it's really sort of are creeping into the world of furniture. And in furniture. Hickory furniture is very rustic, as oak furniture would be to Oak furniture would be sort of rustic, but on your floors. It's on everybody's floors. Speaker 3 36:29 Right? Okay, that sounds great. I can't tell you how grateful I am that you've given me your time because no problem Thank you. Speaker 2 36:39 And you know best of luck if you're rearrange things and you want to call back feel free. It's always good hearing what you know how things go and you know, at the end of the kitchen when you're after you're enjoying it or whatever, it's we hardly ever hear from anybody after the project is done. So feel free to. It's always nice to Debbie 36:57 send you pictures when it's all done. Paul McAlary 36:59 That would be lovely. Talking to you. Debbie 37:03 Thank you so much, Paul. Paul McAlary 37:04 All right, take care. Bye bye. Mark Mitten 37:06 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally claimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai