Mark Mitten 0:03 Are you trying to design your own kitchen using software that doesn't have standard kitchen cabinet sizes and pricing? You better Paul McAlary 0:16 Hi, Rose. Can you hear me? This is Paul? Rose 0:19 Yes, I can hear you. Well, thank you. Paul McAlary 0:21 Thanks for calling better cold pole. Yeah, I have all of your drawings that you sent. And it was very interesting. This software that you've been working on is called Home Designer. Hmm. So yes, I've never seen it before kitchen designers, we generally use either 2020 or program called Pro craft, because it prices out cabinetry, or certainly pro kitchens, not program pro kitchens, because they price out cabinetry, as we're designing that. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. And architects or interior designers, a lot of times might use a program like this, a lot of times they use something called chief architect that has a little bit nicer pictures and nicer renderings, and everything, but they don't price out cabinetry. And because you're not pricing cabinetry means that you're not really using sizes that cabinet brands come in. So that's really one of the reasons why, when you're designing a kitchen, it's good to be working with a kitchen designer, because anything that you're doing can actually happen. Whereas a lot of times you might realize it, but you're thinking about maybe getting J and K because a bunch of cabinets in your design that J and K doesn't offer, you know, exactly. So you're gonna end up maybe making decisions or it looks like you must have spent a lot of time working on this right? Rose 1:47 I have. So the thought the reads the background on the software was we finished our basement about a year and a half ago. And I was doing some research on programs at the time. And I had come across this one and they used it for our Basement Systems, they still had access to it. I tried it out with the kitchen. But I wasn't sure how to render the photos. So I apologize that the photos came out came out panoramic. Paul McAlary 2:12 That's fine. It's all fine. It's just that a lot of times I don't know how many hours you spent. But you're you're also Oh no, no. You know, even buying your appliances to the more things people do. Once you consult us as kitchen designers. Generally, if you can figure out who you're working with, you're getting a lot of information that saves you time, and a lot of time saves you money because you end up buying different appliances sometimes than you would have bought, if you had worked on your design with us. Rose 2:45 We're guilty of falling into that pressure during COVID When there was such long delays, and we regret it. But yeah, we're here now. Paul McAlary 2:56 You want me just to start off with the things that I sort of see about the things that you're thinking about doing? Rose 3:05 Yeah, absolutely. I would love to just get your thoughts on it. We've, we've contemplated so many different designs. And and ultimately, this is kind of what we felt comfortable kind of moving forward with at least getting advice on. Until now. We weren't even sure we were ready to share it. But yeah, I mean, I don't know that happy when I came across your blog about all the different cabinet brands. And then I saw saw this opportunity. So I'd love to pick your brain. Paul McAlary 3:31 Sure. The earlier you come to us all these things are trade offs. So I just said to the customer that i i was when that customer the caller that called right before you that, you know, she was thinking that the dishwashers goes either on the right or the left, depending on whether you're left or right handed, when in reality it's we want to put the dishwasher where it makes working in the kitchen, the most convenient. And it will depend on the individual kitchen, which side that things goes on. But the more just as people work on their kitchen and make all the trade offs and everything else, they'll come to rational reasons for all of the decisions. And then once they consult somebody that does it for a living, we just give them one additional piece of information. And we ruin a whole lot of work and a whole lot of time that they spent thinking on stuff. I mean, you're here now. But in general, you know, once you figure out the company that you want to work with, you can work with us as long as you want. And our design time pretty much at all kitchen places is incorporated into the price of the cabinetry that you're buying. So once you determine who those people are, they'll work with you forever, almost whenever for free, right and your time will come out of the floor to the cabinets, and you'll be all of a sudden spending a lot less of your time because we didn't throw a monkey wrench into the works. Being said when I start now we turn around and we say what monkey wrench Do I see in your kitchen, all these things are trade offs. One is the table and the location of the table that you have, you're not really leaving yourself enough room right now even to pull out the chair and sit. So you need to actually have move to the left, or move closer to the island and your sink to be able to pull the chairs out. And for the middle person to extricate or even anybody on the side would have to slide to get out. So you need to always leave yourself, the rule is 27 inches, you have to pull the chair out, the chair can have a thick back, and the back rub against the windows or the wall. But you can stand up if you're thin and get out. But anything less than 27 inches, it's impossible to stand up and walk out. So like right now you've got this as under one and a half, and I'm looking at the cabinets, which is you're leaving yourself about 23 inches or so in back in between the patio door. So you have to move yourself, if you want to be comfortably be able to stand up and have people that aren't really thin be able to stand up, you got to move yourself seven inches away from the patio door. And even when you do that, you still really not going to be able to get in and out the patio door. Right? Right. What's outside that patio door is your table there now. Rose 6:29 This is where our table is now but our island is significantly smaller right now I think our islands only six foot at the moment. So we've got space, the tables moved over a little bit more. And the the cabinets along the wall where the sink is those are also about six or seven inches shorter. But we're not we're not tied to the table, we can we can move that to the formal dining and put in a smaller table if we need to. Paul McAlary 6:57 Yeah, I mean, even the table in the picture that you have is a little bit on the wide side. So if you bought a table, what do you want to 42 inches, that also saves you a couple of inches. So that might be a cool thing to do. And then how many people in your family Rose 7:14 so up to the kids are four of us. We've got my mom that lives with us so five at all times. And then my in laws watch the kids while we work. So usually any given night, we've got about seven of us. Paul McAlary 7:25 Oh, okay, so you're on a daily basis, you want to be able to sit ate at the table. If that's the case, just leave yourself enough room. So your your in laws and your mom struggling, you know and or just give them the outside seats. Give the kids Rose 7:44 Exactly. Paul McAlary 7:45 So then the other thing is, I mean, the other big sacrifice that you made to is that you got a 40 inch up to me a 48 inch range. What kind of range is this? Rose 7:57 It's the kitchen you need all gas. Paul McAlary 8:01 So what's a kitchen a gas reigns with not a cooktop? It's arranged with ovens underneath it. Rose 8:08 Correct right now we've got a cooktop and that that area to the left of the sink has our double oven. And that's what we wanted to get rid of. Because it's so bulky right there by the entrance. So we we we that ideally the whole remodel, it was for that reason. So we got the 48. Now I regret it and wish we had stuck with 36 Because our current cooktop is 36. It's more than sufficient. But yeah, it's just this is where we're at now. So you're contemplating going? Yep. Paul McAlary 8:40 This is a pretty powerful range to since it's 48. So that's correct. And you're thinking about using a downdraft. So Rose 8:49 yeah, we've got the downdraft now with the cooktop. So we figured if we continue with a downdraft, we can, we may have to we'll have to move the vent location, but we can still use a lot of the existing vent and electrical. If we don't, then the option is a ceiling mounted one, but I honestly don't know that it would work well enough. Is it circulating more of the house there at that point, or is it actually capturing Paul McAlary 9:18 our area? You're having a mother living with you? And you mentioned in your thing that you're Indian, right? Rose 9:24 Yes, there's a lot of cooking that happens here. So Paul McAlary 9:27 you know, I don't know in our area. I don't know Indian customers that do any kind of authentic cooking. They won't even buy kitchens, or homes with downdrafts because downdrafts don't really work very well. And if you're cooking along lots of spices and everything else, life is a lot better. If all the smoke, grease, spices, everything else is getting sucked up. And that's why we're trying to always get there. cooktops on a wall where we can vent everything hang outside. So Rose 10:02 exactly. So that that's exactly why we contemplated swapping the sink in the range, but I just don't know that. Ideally, if that's like a big nono, or well, how you feel it would fit there with the window. But Paul McAlary 10:17 well, you know what the other thing too is? What's the outside of your house made out of it stucco? Rose 10:23 No, we've got cedar siding, Paul McAlary 10:25 you've got cedar siding. So you'd have to live for a few years, with siding changing if you raise the window up or change the window. But there's lots of different designs and lots of different ways to get other light in your kitchen. Or you're spent so much money on appliances, right? What did you spend on appliances? 25,000 $1,000. Rose 10:53 We got some good deals, but I think we were probably about it 20. So when we when we bought everything, Paul McAlary 10:59 putting new windows on the back of your house and not living with this one window that's there, you could put the range in the middle of the space and put two small windows on either end, instead of a window in the middle. And doing that you'd have to buy two windows. If they were double hung windows and they were Palas. They might be $300 $400 a window which is $800. He got some siding work, but the whole project might be 3000 $4,000.03 or $4,000. Now you don't have the downdraft ducting system that you're going to need to redo. Does your present cooktop, is it electric or gas? Speaker 3 11:40 It's guest, so we've got gas running to it already. Paul McAlary 11:45 So just gas and downdrafts also don't really work together. downdrafts are supposed to work with electric stoves, because you're pulling air away from the burners on the flames that you're trying to cook with? Exactly. I mean, for me, you got this really expensive appliance package, you got tons and tons of cabinets. He even talked, I think in the email that you said, Oh, we'd really like to have not the appliance garages. But the doors that lift up, right. All right. Well, those doors that lift, Rose 12:17 didn't know how to model that. So I left it looking like the the garage, okay, Paul McAlary 12:22 I don't know that, you're gonna find them with J and K, I'm not sure I don't know J and Ks catalog well enough, Bobby wood has them. But it cost like $600 for each extra to have the doors open that way. So you start adding up to $600, just your appliance garage has ended up costing you more than the window change to the back of your house. All of these things, you know, when we're designing somebody's kitchen, we can sort of stop in the middle of the design process. And we can say, hey, you know, this is it's all the same money. So if I change your windows on the back of your house, I may be eating up $4,000 in the budget. But now look, we don't have the ductwork that has to get hooked up. We don't if you're going to get a new downdraft that's going to be way more expensive than a hood might have been, you start micromanaging some of the cabinetry that you're picking to try to save money. And all of a sudden, we just we saved the $4,000 that you were going to spend extra on the window, even when you're thinking about working at it. When the stove goes where that window is, that's where you're really cooking is that the stove so you're gonna lose the advantage of facing everybody in the rest of the house that you have when you're at the stove. Now if you're working at the downdraft, but you'll have like five feet of countertop, or whatever this expansive amount of countertop on either side of your stove to be able to work at if your stove is over there because you don't really work at the area that where your sink is you work around the area that you cook. So all of that countertop becomes very useful to you. And then if you put something else some other things on that countertop, like coffee makers or toaster ovens or anything else, you have plenty of room for that too. But they're also all sort of around the area that you're cooking. And then if you do flip these things, then now you're at your sink, there's no reason to have a hood over the top of you so you don't have to have the hood over the top of you. That would work a lot better if you had your cooktop or your range in your island. But if you had your range in the island, you need the downdraft to be four feet wide. So you're certainly going to have to buy a new unit it's going to be very expensive. I don't even know if they um they ensure that they make a 48 inch downdraft you might not have to have that to downdraft units to be able to span a 48 inch. You really can't have this little downdraft and this and the really big cooking area that you have and then if you have a hood that works well coming down over The area where you're cooking at the island, then that's a big sacrifice, you got a big hood hanging out in the middle of the room. So I'm a big fan. And I would move the window instead of raising it up, if you raise it up 12 inches, you'll be far enough away from these burners, that you won't crack the window. Or if it's an insulated glass window, break the seal so that the window doesn't work and steams up and everything. But you also, if you're having a hood hanging down, you'd get a peninsula hood, and it will be hanging down in front of the window. So I mean, it wouldn't be a horrible thing we do we do it all the time, have a hood hanging down in front of the window, you just have to get what's called a peninsula hood, which means it's finished on the back. You don't want your neighbors looking in the you don't want you looking in the back of your window and seeing it unfinished Speaker 3 15:52 in the back. Right. Certainly, certainly. Paul McAlary 15:56 So I mean, I think Rose 15:58 kind of the sun that glares in while cooking, I figured that I mean, we always almost have that blind, the blinds closed at the sink, because sun is always blaring in. So I think that idea of two on the sides probably makes more sense. So that, you know, we're not blinded by the sun, because we obviously wouldn't put any window treatments on it, if we put the range there. Paul McAlary 16:19 But yeah, I mean, the thing too, about window treatments that nobody thinks about is heat when things that are hot depressurize. So when things that are hot depressurize right, because you know hot air is thinner than cold air. And the cold air wants to rush in and replace the area where the hot air is. So why am I what am I talking about? Any blinds are things that you put on the window, the second you turn on the burners, they billow out over the flames. So it and the colder it is, the more they're billowing, you know, you don't want to put any kind of window treatment on the window, the stove is going in front of it. Unless I guess it was meant that was in the interior of the glass. All of this stuff is fungible. So you when you're shopping for cabinets now, you can just change the design and make the design a little bit different to save a little bit of money like the the tall cabinet that you have on the end by the refrigerator after all of the garages that you have that tall cabinet there is 42 and 18 is 60 inches high. So I know fabuleux it doesn't make it once you talk to J and K, you're not going to find a 60 inch high door? Rose 17:36 Probably no. I just modeled it that way to fill the space. But the one I had in mind, I think I think Debbie would make one worth like two drawers on the bottom first. Yeah, yeah, I was thinking that one. But again, I wasn't sure how to model that. But I wanted to just give the the overall look of what we were thinking. And I think you're right j and k does it and I do believe they offer the option with like two new drawers and then putting one on top, but we'd have to double check the measurements on it. I saw one in their showroom that kind of looked like that where they did two new drawers. Or they might have been from the vanity section, but two drawers and then a cabinet on top. But it somewhat custom not not a stock piece. Paul McAlary 18:22 So the other thing too, that I think people don't think about, if you get these appliance garages Well, I guess your software doesn't have the right widths. We want our appliance garages to be as wide as possible. So I'd like a 30 inch appliance garage is sort of typical, so that you make the wall cabinets above 30 inches, and then you roll up the appliance garage. And then you can access the appliance. If it was let's say a coffee maker or a toaster oven, you could pull it out onto the countertop that's in front of it. And then you could use it you'd only have 12 inches of countertop to work on. But it sort of all works. But when you get the flip up doors, there's two kinds of flip up doors, there's they both are very expensive. But the ones that flip up and stay sort of at 90 degrees. The problem with those is now they're in your way if you're trying to work out the countertop, right? If you pull out the coffeemaker, you can't get any water in it, because the door that's opened up is in the way. So we're a blender, you couldn't put anything in the blender that so there are other doors that Fabbi would sells that fold all the way up so that they cover the coolers to the wall cabinets above. And those are the most expensive cabinets of all because that of course hinge is the most expensive of all. So that's like seven $50 A cabinet extra. Like I think the cabinet itself is maybe $1,500 Just for one of them. Rose 19:48 Wow. That's heavy wood ones were the ones I was looking at, but I didn't realize that. Paul McAlary 19:53 Yeah, I didn't have to look it up but they were well over $100 I think but again, all of this stuff too. If it's going to be a beautiful kitchen, if you just had it opened underneath, you would leave these appliances exposed. But the beauty then is now all the outlets are also accessible. And you also have countertop that you could be working at someone takes something out of the refrigerator, you can't really put them down on the countertop, well, I mean anything big you couldn't put down, because you're only have 12 inches a countertop in front of these things. If you had countertop, that was full depth, you wouldn't be able to hide all the stuff that you want to hide, but you suddenly have countertop to be able to take stuff out of the refrigerator and put down. And then if maybe you put a big pantry cabinet on either side of the refrigerator, that could be the place where you hide some appliances and some other things. That's what the soda designers were supposed to do is sort of think through, you've thought through that you want to hide the appliances, but you haven't thought through how much it really ruins the countertops that you might want to use. Rose 20:59 I think our problem is that our countertop is the more that we have accessible, the more just filled with junk, because we've got two toddlers and lots of grandparents that so it just becomes the dump though and for everything. Now, of course, I need to create a solution for the dump soon. But this was a this was sort of my thought of, well, if there just isn't space to put anything, maybe it will dump here. But maybe Americans don't that everything just piles up on the countertop, you don't Paul McAlary 21:31 really have any pantries anywhere. So maybe if you slid down your refrigerator and put a pantry cabinet on each side of the refrigerator, that would make the refrigerator look built in. So that you know the pantry cabinets and the cabinets over the top of the refrigerator would be enclosing the refrigerator. And then that would get you to the corner. And then you'd put your microwave and everything else, you could move your microwave down, it's going to be a microwave drawer, I assume. Rose 22:04 So ours, it's it's built in, but it's actually a pulldown handle. Paul McAlary 22:09 Oh, it's a pulldown handle. So you don't want it on right next to the refrigerator. And it's not because of the heat or anything. It's because you don't want someone to have the door down and then you open the refrigerator and dented. So it's better that microwave is better off being removed from being close to the refrigerator, also, so that people can be working at it and using it and not have the refrigerator door hit them when they're standing there. So you want to move things. So the separate things, that's a good location for the microwave, but better maybe down at the other end. So that people could be accessing the microwave, taking stuff out of the refrigerator, putting it on the countertop in between the two or whatever. And then if you get put some pantries there, that's a lot on either side of the refrigerator. That's a lot of food storage, and then or some food storage, but it also can can help you hide things. Rose 23:08 Certainly, we've we've got a we've got a nice pantry, but they put it in a very awkward location, it's actually right behind that wall. So you have to kind of go around and go down the hall and it's on the other side of the stairs. So it's not the most convenient location, unfortunately, and I think that's also why things pile up since the pantry is. So kind of far away. We we thought about for the longest time opening up that wall right actually where we have this microwave oven that upper to the left of the fridge, but it would compromise other things in the house. There's two or three different air return lines and there isn't enough space for us to relocate those from the basement or for up tap. So it would have been great, it would give us a straight shot to the pantry. The butler's pantry where we've got a little coffee bar and straight into the dining room. But unfortunately there's too much stuff in the way. Paul McAlary 24:03 So maybe structurally, if you put a panel on the right side of your refrigerator to close it in, then you would have a three foot or a 30 inch wide pantry to the left of your refrigerator. You can keep your food and everything down in the other pantry and then hide as much stuff as you might like in that pantry that you take out and you put on the countertop. Certainly, but whatever you can think about that. I guess the other thing that jumps out at me is the bar sink that you have that it's a very small bar sink and the cabinet that you have it in now is like a one foot cabinet you want even if you had the bar sink only be 11 inches wide. You want to make sure that the countertop is wide enough on the front and on the side of it so that it doesn't crack. Correct. It just needs to be a bigger cabinet that your sink is in and or or move the sink down one cabinet. Rose 25:03 Sure, this, this software didn't allow me to change the size, but so the only reason I even put it there is actually because we have one there now. And it's actually like a skinny long. It's in a one for cabinet. But the sink itself is almost like a six, six inches wide by 10 inches long. So it's almost like you fill it with ice, you can stick a champagne bottle in it. Not very useful unless you're hosting. But unfortunately, I couldn't model that correctly. But if we, I did want to ask you, though, what your thoughts were just overall kind of value added of having the second one, if we were to swap the range and the sink and put our sink into the main island? Is there really much benefit of having a second one at that second island? Or would it be all the same? If we just took it out? I guess, Paul McAlary 25:58 you know, I don't know, actually, it's really interesting. I liked that. That was a really nice feature that they made. It's not really very functional as a sink, but putting ice and wine bottles and stuff. It's pretty cool. Yeah, Rose 26:11 I think I've used it the most detail like, what are the like the serving trays, there's a name for them. And I can't think of what they're called. But with the servos that you heat up kind of the serving trays when you're hosting, I actually end up using that seems the most because they fill the water from right there. And then we line up the food on that second buffet. Paul McAlary 26:32 Yeah, I don't think you need it. But you already have plumbing there. So if you wanted to add a sink there doesn't cost you really anything. What are your countertops now are they Rose 26:43 we got their quartz, they look like marble, but they're they're quartz, Paul McAlary 26:48 okay, and what kind of countertops that you're gonna get when you redo your kitchen. Rose 26:54 We're kind of thinking maybe the same thing, but slightly changing the color tone a little bit just to kind of match. The cabinets are original to the home of 1984. But when we purchased the home two and a half years ago, a property management group bought it for a close and they flipped it. So they they did a really nice job refinishing the cabinets, and they painted them a nice light gray. But they're just not functional just based on size. It's a lot of mini cabinets like nine inch, 12 inch, kind of thing. And, and no drawers of any kind. So that's really our main reason to switch. But we are thinking to go with with an off white. And then that kind of leaves us with some room of either maybe a granite with a little bit of speckle in it. Or we'll just continue with that marble look button in Canada, same thing because the floors were stained extremely dark. So we don't want to put in, Paul McAlary 27:51 the only reason I was asking is you you can't really save all your countertops, but that one countertop could be saved if you wanted, right, you could definitely you could pull it up and even I don't know what kind of condition the sink is in. But you could save that whole little thing and just redo it or reconfigure it. And then put it all right back if you wanted to. If the new countertops that you got went with that countertop, and you liked it at all, and you wanted to keep that sink unit that you have. I can't imagine that that was that was in the kitchen originally, because it's a very it's a contemporary sink. So it's only been around for a few years. Rose 28:30 Exactly. I think it was a feature that they may have added when they when they read it everything. The other option is that we may put it into the basement and kind of put it as part part of a basement bar. We finished everything in the basement except for this small little kitchen area. Because we were hoping to reuse some of this downstairs when we eventually did the home there. So if we can make it work downstairs, we'll move it if not, and if we can find the same countertop again, then that that certainly is an option. Right now I think we've got we just don't have enough because we've got the double oven. So there's some countertop missing there. And then we the current Island, they made it very oddly shaped the cooktops at the very corner to put anything next to the cooktop on the right. Paul McAlary 29:21 You can never really use countertops again. But that just that one small section might be the only time I would ever encourage somebody to try to salvage anything. So exactly. So I guess other than those things, what's happening with the it looks like is your ceiling, a vaulted ceiling or what kind of ceiling Do you Rose 29:39 have? No, it's we've got nine foot ceilings and it's feeling across and then there's a we've got another floor above it. But past this, the two pillars, it goes into the family room. So it's a it's a pretty expansive space. So It feels open when you're there, it feels like a very open layout. But there's no vaulted ceiling in the kitchen. When you go into the family room, it's the two storey 20 foot ceiling Paul McAlary 30:11 and then either coming, like, from the end of the walls to the pillars and across or anything or in the design the pillars or just go into the ceiling. But you know, the reason you have your cabinets going up to 96 inches, I guess right now you have probably a crown molding on top of the cabinets, and then just open space them, right? Rose 30:38 Correct. We were thinking maybe a six inch filler, and then maybe a six foot a six inch molding to kind of just feel that off. But I don't know if that's too. Is that too outdated? Or is that still? I liked that. Okay. Paul McAlary 30:51 Yeah, I mean, I liked that better. I think then and the way you do it, because you're thinking about getting off white cabinets, right? You said? Yes, yes. So you don't do the moldings from the cabinet company. You do the moldings and unfinished wood, and you take like a one by 12. Essentially, that goes all the way from the top of the cabinets to the ceiling. And then you have a five inch molding that goes between the ceiling, and that one by and goes up and down. And then if you wanted to make the edge of that one by a little bit fancier, the contractor could just round over the edge, or put a profile on the edge. Sometimes we use tall baseboards that have a profile, we turn them upside down. But I think it's much nicer closed in. And then you know you don't get dust on top of your cabinets. As your molding gets bigger, it's getting closer to the ceiling. And it's looking sort of funnier, so I like that. But then the reason that you're doing it too, you're gonna have all these big long moldings, and some long molding runs in your kitchen. And if you did it from the cabinet company, that moldings would those moldings would cost you like $4,000 in molding, and or, at least. And if you didn't end the carpenter if he's really good, you know, they're all going to come prefinished. So he'll do a really good job of cutting all the moldings and the day he's finished, they'll look beautiful, but then a year later, they'll have all because there's such big long pieces of wood, they'll have expanded and contracted, and every seam in a light colored finish will now be a black line. If they do this and unfinished wood, you can caulk the seams, and then go to the paint store. They'll scan one of your doors color, match it and then mix a paint that will pretty much perfectly match your cabinets. And then you have the contractors paint the moldings to match the cabinets. And then a year later when the molding expands and contracts, you've got a gallon of extra paint, you just caught the seams if they've opened up a little bit, and then just take out your paint, store it all up and then touch everything up. And it's all touchable because it's water based paint instead of a solid enamel from the cabinet company. That's not touch up cabinet. cabinets with liquid paint. Okay, so yeah, so I I'm a fan of doing that. Rose 33:20 Yeah, that that certainly makes much more sense to do I agree that that's a good one. I don't feel the overall look of this house really goes with too modern of a kitchen. If we were to go with the last cabinets with lights, I don't think it's the right look. To really it's more of like a contemporary modern home. So we figured having proper moulding and millwork would be would be better. So kind of Paul McAlary 33:49 very expensive to get the little cabinets on top. That's the most expensive route. The little cabinets on top are more expensive than the big cabinets underneath them. Anything else that I see you have one one side of your sink or dishwasher what's on the other side of your sink Rose 34:04 now. It's that's the just garbage recycle pull out. Paul McAlary 34:09 Okay, so it's just going to be a trash recycling. If you do decide to move your sink to the island they can move to Rose 34:16 and Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Then I would I would probably put the dishwasher to the right and the garbage to the left. So it's close to the table. Yeah. That's how that's how I had it in my in the opposite design. But I didn't model both. I just modeled one. But I figured and then because we've got the big table and just the shape. It didn't make sense to us to try to do any seating at the island because we didn't want to go to so crazy oversight. I think what we have is is big enough as it is and I wanted to have full access to those cabinets on the on the backside of the islands. Paul McAlary 34:58 Yes, so we certainly don't need Once you're gonna have if you want full access on the backside, and you don't care about seating, you don't want to overhang anything. Right, once you overhang you have access. Alright, so I think all those things are one. Sure fire away. Rose 35:15 Oh, yeah, I do have one question for you. So you mentioned with the possibility if I move the fridge over a little and I put in a, a pantry to the left of the fridge, I guess it's essentially probably the same issue if someone's trying to use the microwave, same time in the fridge. But do you think it would be worth trying to do the built in microwave into the pantry kind of similar to it would be a little custom. But it'd be similar to like, a wall oven. But just for the microwave? Or do you still have the same concern that someone opening the freezer while using the microwave and damaging? Paul McAlary 35:54 You have the same problem, but that now there's a reason for it to be there. You know, before there was no reason for it to be there. You could put it in any base cabinet, why have it in a place that it could damage the refrigerator? But if you do put a pantry next to the refrigerator, and you want it to build in the oven cabinet into it, you totally could, you said that this is a door that folds down? Correct. So you would just put it maybe in the top of the bottom of the pantry so that when it folded down the door was sort of even with countertop height. And then you don't really have a door folded down that often. So I don't really worry about it that much, especially when it's just a little bit higher that it's sort of in your face, and not something that can be forgotten as easily. But at least there's a room for it. The reason it's there is you're putting it in the tall cabinet and keeping these deep things together is what makes them all look built in. So if that makes sense. That makes sense. Because you're keeping the deep stuff together. But if it's going to go underneath the countertop, there's just no reason to have it. It will work a lot better higher up, right. So it'll be much more likely to you if it's in the pantry cabinet. Rose 37:13 I agree. That was our initial thought. And then we weren't sure if it would flow very well. But I guess I didn't realize as much that the fridge isn't getting its full built in effect without actually having another deep cabinet next to it. So Paul McAlary 37:27 can you hold on one second? Okay, I'm back. At someone at our front door, and I am not on my office today. I'm sitting in my kitchen when I'm recording this. So Rose 37:41 okay, okay. No, absolutely. So I appreciate all of your time. Yeah, I certainly appreciate all of the insights that you've given us and in good options to change and make everything work very well. Paul McAlary 37:55 Yeah, I mean, it's all up to you. I mean, all these things are all trade offs that you just you get all the information from us. And then you just decide what the things that you want to do. Or, you know, certainly the fold down door works way better with the pantry. Even though you do have the one little worry now that the full down door is just at the height that you want to take stuff out and put on the countertops or do anything else with and it all looks built in. Exactly. You could also have no windows and close it up and have no windows where your ranges and it's still a big open space and has lots of windows at least on one side of the kitchen. So all the stuff you decide we just give you a little bit more information and you decide what to do with it. And then j&k is a good brand. I think that we'd like fab you would a little bit more they're a little bit more versatile. Rose 38:47 Absolutely. I'm waiting to see if our contractor gets selected to be a dealer with them. I've liked everything I've seen so far. But we are we like who were working with. So they're they're trying right now we're hoping it goes through and that we can choose February or Paul McAlary 39:04 that's one thing that I don't like though. contractors should not be selling cabinets. Rose 39:10 Can they work with tabular without being a dealer? You don't Paul McAlary 39:13 want to buy your cabinets to the contractors. And the reason is they're not designers. I mean, I guess there were design and build is it a design and build company? That's what they do. Generally, Rose 39:25 we build hotels, but they're there they're our best friends. So they're they're doing our kitchen for us but they actually build hotels Paul McAlary 39:33 typically I would find a dealer unless they're family or something and they're going to become a dealer and then sell you the cabinets for cost or something like that. Then they will be saving your money people that don't design kitchens for a living it's really complicated. And you actually Rose 39:51 they're not doing the design work that's that's assist if we like I'm doing the design work. All of this so far. Yeah, Paul McAlary 39:59 but you're not You know, you're, you're you're having you're playing when you're designing, right? That there's stuff, it takes a long time to vet. And to understand a lot of the issues that go on with cabinets, and how everything's operating with everything else that people just don't, don't consider. So and then the ordering process, when you're ordering things, you know, it takes a village practically to order a kitchen correctly. And then to process any kind of mistakes or problems that happens, people that aren't ordering a brand of cabinets for a living, it's just a recipe for disaster. So certainly, I would get a quote from some company that actually sells these brands. And at least compare it to the price that you're getting from these people. If it's remotely close. Buy it from a dealer that has a long term relationship with the cabinet brand, can process any defects, any issues, we'll be able to take responsibility for the measurements, and making sure that everything fits and everything works can help the contractors understand installation and how your moldings are getting installed on top of the cabinets if you're reaching the ceiling, I mean, they probably could figure that out on their own, if they're building hotels. But as far as kitchens goes, there's going to be lots of stuff that you're just not going to realize that you have that problem. Now you have all of these small cabinets, because the person that designed your house didn't work with the kitchen designer, they probably were a builder, too. And they just did the design themselves and then ordered all these cabinets in silly size. So there's yeah, there's way more than sizes. And then when somebody prices, this stuff out, when they've never done it before, they'll get the overall price for the kitchen. And they won't be able to tell you because they don't even know how to use the software to put it on the right. So they won't be able to price out. They'll just order these things. And then, you know, no one will mention to you that it's costing you $1,200 for each of your fold up doors, right? Well, exactly. So you'll just get a price for from looking at this kitchen and Fab you would this is saying to me $20,000 $21,000 or something like that, in fact, possibly, if you add the full pantry and some other stuff, but $20,000 Fab you would you'll get this number and you won't realize that 4000 Or five 4000 or $5,000 of it is fold up doors, right? So you want somebody to say you want somebody to be helping you not just making sure that it all works, but that they've got experience ordering, not just ordering a kitchen which these guys don't have, but ordering in the brand that they're ordering in. Yeah, exactly. Rose 42:57 They've got a lot of experience using j&k, which was which was how I we got into all of it. But after diving through the through your website I came across Febby was I don't think we have anyone here nearby. And that was kind of the other problem. I think it's almost two hours away for me to get to the closest. Paul McAlary 43:20 If you're isn't j&k North Jersey? Rose 43:24 No, no. I'm in the j&k. That's an Illinois. Oh, Speaker 2 43:28 God, I didn't realize JK was in Illinois. But j&k is a good brand. But they're not designing kitchens. I mean you get a price from them, and then go to a j&k dealer if there's that j&k deal. And yet, if the price is remotely similar, I think it's way better to begin from the Rose 43:45 Okay, I'll do that. Because the local one that they work with, they provide they do they they assist with I don't know if all of the Jane keys are that way, but the one here they'll do all your 3d modeling and everything for you. You just go in with they don't work with the public they only work with with contractors, but they'll do they'll do a lot of that stuff. So it's a little different. It's not the same type of design service that you guys are providing, but they will at least do the fit checks and things like Paul McAlary 44:14 J and K's actual factory will sell out of the factory to contractors and they'll do design work for the for the contractors. Rose 44:22 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the the local location here does that. So they were Yeah, they work with them for a lot of their properties and and so they said they'd have them do ours as well. Paul McAlary 44:33 And they're also not designers, little bit of knowledge tends to be a dangerous thing. If it's you're saving a whole lot of money, then maybe the headaches and the problems that you inevitably have will be worth it. But usually the dealer's like if you're going to the j&k factory, and you're ordering from the factory directly. The dilemma that that factory has is that they have Have a lot of j&k dealers that are probably relatively close to them. And if they were selling cabinetry out of their showroom for that much less to anybody that had a dealer close to them, they wouldn't be able to have any dealers around them. And they would piss everybody off. So we have a cabinet brand like this, we work with wells for it, it's a custom cabinet brand. And they're not that far from us. Well, Wellsford can really sell to the public for very much less than we sell to the public for if less at all, because they would have like a Frankenstein movie with the townspeople and pitchforks and whatever, but all of their dealers would be up in arms, that they were undercutting the dealers. So your contractor, probably he gets the buy directly from them. But the whole process, probably I'm suspecting, it's not going to save you that much money, but just check with the dealer, when you get the thing designed, you can have a design to them. And they won't even mind if you steal the design as a regular dealer would, because they're still getting the sale, right? There's someone still having this from them. So you could actually work on your design for longer. But the first as soon as you get to zero, do a real dealer, you should be getting some better help. Right? Right. And get pricing from both places, I would work with the dealer to get the better help and then price it if I could with after I get the thing designed with the dealer, then private price through your the people that you know, and through the factory, and then just see what the difference. Rose 46:40 That's, that's a good idea. I think I felt bad going that route, if I wasn't sure 100% Sure if I would be purchasing from from the designer, ya know, Paul McAlary 46:49 I know I understand better how you got to this, that you're getting it from the factory or whatever, I will be surprised if there's much of a price difference just because like I said, people up in arms, and then the people that are doing the design, they're getting paid, possibly a tiny, tiny fraction of what the people at the dealer are getting paid. Because the dealers people are kitchen designers. And in the world of kitchen design, if you're working for the factory, as a kitchen designer, designing these things, you're making less than they are at Home Depot and Lowe's, you might need to know the software to help ordering or whatever. But it's just working in the industry of the production is much less lucrative than working in the retail section. You should be getting better people when you're going to a retail locate when you go into a dealer. So we would hope. I hope so too. Yeah, not a guarantee, the person that the no getting overpaid and the person at the factory doesn't realize that he's being underpaid and doesn't realize where she doesn't realize that she could be out in the world doing a lot better. Or, you know, there are a lot of kitchen designers that don't like the public. So they really liked doing this and getting underpaid only because they're not comfortable selling things and dealing with the public and having individual customers that you're responsible to. Rose 48:20 No, that makes sense. And, and they they do only work with contractors and non public. So I I think you're you're right that kind of just are behind the scenes and prefer to be that way in that in that office. But I think I'll definitely explore. We do have a nice one nice showroom right near us with a lot of with a lot of designers. We just didn't want to waste anyone's time. So if we may just kind of sit down and price it out and just see how big of a difference it is Paul McAlary 48:52 to find out if they carry j&k. I mean that's the good thing about a showroom. Well, I'm friends with a kitchen designer. We carry fab you wood they carry j&k, they carry KraftMaid. They carry a bunch of different higher end brands. We carry a bunch of middle priced higher end brands, custom brands, but the designers that work with me, we sell fabulous, we sell less expensive cabinets and fabulous. We sell Cuba Tech, we have a stock brand that we sell. But the designers that work for me, they're the same people that are designing custom kitchens in the custom brands. So they have to be knowledgeable. So you have all of this design experience. And when they're working on kitchens that are less expensive per hour, if you figure it out. We don't make much difference in the amount of money on an inexpensive sale as we do from an expensive sale. Because the custom cabinets, there's so much stuff and so much customization that's involved, that you're working 7060 hours on somebody's kitchen, whereas in your kitchen, we could do the design, you could have a couple of appointments to modify it and you're all done. Their catalogue isn't so big and what The offer isn't so different, that it's that much work that we're putting in. So if you find a place that sells inexpensive brands and expensive brands, that will get you when you're buying a less expensive brand, the more sophisticated designer that's just selling you the less expensive brand, because you could walk into a kitchen place and their business model might be, we only sell custom cabinets, in which case you're gonna get a price for cabinets, that's going to be triple the price of the j&k price, you know, you get a glass of champagne when you come into their showroom. That's just the business model that we're working with. But once you have a model, where we're selling all of these different brands, we will actually be I think, better kitchen designers than the custom places. Because we have to be that versatile to be to know about all these different things. And that much further up on the market. When you just design custom kitchens, it's a luxury, you can learn nothing about kitchen design, because anything that you hand drawer, or anything that you design, the cabinet grant will just create for you. So you don't even realize that there are innovations in our industry or other things that you can do. Because somebody's catering to you essentially, with everything that you're ordering. Rose 51:19 Yeah, there's no obligation to be, you know, at the at the top of your game to know exactly what's going on and, and fitting in semi, you know, working with stock numbers, but also semi customizing it to how Paul McAlary 51:34 you have no idea. Yep, no idea how to save people money either. So really, if we're designing your kitchen, we're supposed to be helping you, not just designing the kitchen, but making good decisions, maybe spending the money that you have in a better way, coordinating colors doing all of these, there's a whole Our jobs are all encompassing. And if you're only dealing with one cabinet brand, and it's a custom cabinet brand, you're not serving the people that walk in the front door. Some people you might be serving in an okay fashion. But everybody else you're forcing into that one brand that you sell. And you don't have everybody's best interest at heart. When you don't even sell the array of cabinetry. Everybody that has different pricing needs wants to buy. Exactly. If you need any more input, any time in the future, feel free to give us a buzz. If you thought about flipping the things, it's all up to you. Everything works the distances other than the table tweaking to move the table a little bit away from the door and everything. Then just I would make the not even the island but maybe even have the sink area, you know a little bit shorter so you can get through. Rose 52:46 Yeah, absolutely. No, I appreciate all of all of your input and time today. I think you've left me with some good things to think about. So Lee's got a good path moving forward. Paul McAlary 52:58 Okay. All right. Great talking to you rose. Good luck with your kitchen. And if you do need any more help, just feel free to give us a bus. Rose 53:07 We'll do thank you so much. Paul McAlary 53:08 All right. Take care. Mark Mitten 53:10 Take care. Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by bringing cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai