Mark Mitten 0:05 Are you being pressured to buy cabinets at a suspiciously low discount price? Breaks, it's going to disappear before you have a chance to professionally design your kitchen. You better call for it. Paul McAlary 0:32 Charles, welcome to better call, Paul. Okay, I'm looking at your plan and looking at the pictures and stuff that you've got here. A couple of things, I'd say. The design that you got here, the hood area, where's your stove going in the plan here? That's yeah, Charles 0:53 yeah. So the, for the area that's 70. Then there's, we're taken out a wall. So 74 and a half, then what is it, it's going to go it's going to be centered on that wall. So Paul McAlary 1:07 it's going to be centered on the wall. So I guess the thing that you sent me was just existing cabinetry or something. Speaker 1 1:14 Now, this is our this is a conceptual plan of, you know, where we were where we want to go? Paul McAlary 1:21 Well, the layout you have here isn't designed anything like the hood area that you're showing or anything, and this is not even a stove in the picture, right? Yeah. Speaker 1 1:33 Yeah, this is just a conceptual. Yeah. So you're also the, you're Paul McAlary 1:37 a long way away from figuring a lot of stuff out, you know, because if you're going to have your stove here, also, I guess, the wall that you're taking out, is that in the back of your island, Speaker 1 1:49 wow, look at the wall that were taken out. So that the arrangement now is just totally different than what I sent to you. That's interstate. Paul McAlary 1:58 So what's in back? Speaker 1 2:00 Yeah, so the the wall today goes through, would go through the island. Okay, Paul McAlary 2:06 but what's in back of the eye, you know, what's Speaker 1 2:10 that are at the island? Just open space. So there's an exterior door? 75.5 inches double exterior door? And it's just open space? Okay, Paul McAlary 2:20 so you when you do this design, you're also giving up having a table in the room? Speaker 1 2:27 Well, well, there is a table picture somewhere else. It's bottom right, asking the bottom left corner, we've got a bait window and a table there. Paul McAlary 2:36 And that is going to be room for that. Speaker 1 2:40 Yes, yeah. That's not even not even on his drawers? Bottom. Yeah, I Paul McAlary 2:44 mean, but when you have that bay window, and you have that table, how far does it stick out? Does it go in front of the island or in back of the island? Does it stick into the back of the island? And how far away is that gonna be? Speaker 1 2:59 It's a long ways from it a lot, a lot of space there. Paul McAlary 3:02 Well, I mean, I look at this, you know, you need some professional help to really get it planned out. And then when you don't have all the dimensions and everything, for all everything that you're considering, then that's just, you know, you don't give the person doesn't have enough information, but really, truly help you. So that's sort of why what I would say the first thing to do is get somebody a professional to come out and measure the whole space, measure the walls, measure where the windows are, measure everything, so you exactly know how much space you have, when you're leaving some distance between your sink and your huge stove and everything else that you know what you end up with between the back of the island and the doorways, and everything else. And even your island, there's very basic things about your island that make it sort of silly as far as a design goes. And that's that, you know, I'm sure you want the granite or the marble or the quartz, or whatever your countertop is going to be made out of, to all be one piece. And you've got an island that's 72 inches by 164. And there are no slabs of granite quartz marble, or whatever that come that big. So I don't think you want a big scene going through your island. Speaker 1 4:19 So yeah, we're gonna do we're gonna do like a bookmark where you've got one design two slabs. Paul McAlary 4:26 So if you're going to do one design and two slabs, then you're going the 72 inches is no problem. So you got 72 and 64 is 80. You still can't do it. I mean, you'll have 84 by 72. If you divide it in half, and a slab comes as big, the widest the slab comes as 60 So one of your dimensions has to stay 60 Right. If you can, you can't double it. So this just I'm just bringing to your attention the fact that there's a lot of thought process that you're doing and working on. And you don't have this information that that a professional hasn't helped us. And you Speaker 1 5:12 haven't explained what what I'm what I'm going to do, it's going to be 60. And it's going to be 199. So you see that red line, we're gonna push that LM out to 109, it's Paul McAlary 5:21 going to be 199 and 60. Right? Okay, so that's not what's on the page. But that that will work 199 and 60, then you'll have to have it bookmarked, as you said. And then that will also mean that the kinds of tops that you're going to get with this, where you're, you're going to have a seam, and it's going to be obvious where that seam is, but the pattern can sort of continue, but you'll have a seam on it. But depending on the pattern that you pick, if it is something that can be bookmarked, and continue, that will make the countertop way more expensive. Right? So you're looking at $120 a square foot, and it's also you're talking about an island that's so big, I've never sold one in 30 years that, right. So I would say that if you're gonna get an island that big, most people will make it to islands or something, instead of one really long island. So that's all those kinds of things is, you know, things that come into your head, or without the Temperance of being a professional and knowing what stuff is really sort of done and what sort of makes sense. And that's why we sought to help customers. And, you know, I would discourage anybody fit to think long and hard on 199 inch Island. Yeah, because it's, it's like putting an aircraft carrier in the middle of your kitchen. Right? Speaker 1 6:42 So, yeah, we've got to pick up sort of a cabinet line and start, you know, focusing on and design around those around those parameters. Every company's got their own, you know, do's and don'ts and what's available and that sort of thing. So I'm looking at what are for value, what companies, you know, all Paul McAlary 7:04 that you have in the picture. Speaker 1 7:06 Or indicated to we're not wanting like a box, you know, with a door on it, we want the door to insert into the cabinet. Paul McAlary 7:14 Yeah. So once you're doing that, you're going to be in your hood that you're getting, that is all going to only be available in higher end cabinet brains. So you're going to be Starmark. You mentioned, I don't like door supreme, because the company itself, we found when we work with them was not honorable, they didn't honor their warranties to our customers and some other issues. So I would discourage you from ordering from door supreme, unless a company that selling the door supreme has a really good reputation. And then they'll stand behind anything your supreme wouldn't stand behind. And they'll make it right. I mean, that's what we did. When door supreme wouldn't honor our customers warranty, Speaker 1 7:56 then we still knew anything about fieldstone Yeah, fieldstones Paul McAlary 7:59 got a good reputation and feel stone star Mark, that there pretty much used to be the same thing, just with different names on other brands that will be in the same kind of ballpark would be Medallion is another one dynasty would be another one, Omega dynasty or dynasty, omega by dynasty by omega, or dynasty, they're all you're gonna need to be in a higher end and or custom cabinet brand, like the fieldstone. And the star Mark, and medallion will be the least expensive brands that you'll be able to get the inset and maybe the hood that you're trying to do. Speaker 1 8:39 You know, we're trying to narrow down to a range of companies. And you said the lowest price point is star Mark or Paul McAlary 8:47 fieldstone. Or you have to be in once you're getting inset cabinets, once the doors are going into the front of the cabinet, then you either have to be in a custom cabinet brand. Or you have to be very, very close to a custom cabinet. So fieldstone service. Speaker 1 9:07 Who else is in that same market star Mark and feel sorry, Paul McAlary 9:11 Mr. Stone medallion dynasty, that they would be the most we sell, brighten, which I think is the best is a great, it's a custom cabinet, but it's a great value. So it's around the same price. But that might be a harder cat. You know, that's not as big a cabinet brand and it's not sold as many places as fieldstone or medallion would be okay. Oh yeah. And actually Schuler at Lowe's is the same thing as medallion. However, the designers at Lowe's are probably not good enough to design an inset cabinetry. So they might not actually offer inset cabinetry at Lowe's even though Schuler should only because it's the same thing as medallion, but they might be too just worried that their designers would make too many mistakes if they were selling inset, okay? It gets much harder when you're doing when you're inserting cabinetry, there's all kinds of gets very, very complicated. So it's you got to be free much Albert Einstein to get all the things to work and the panels if you're getting refrigerators that accept panels and things like that, you have to be a pretty sophisticated kitchen designer to have all those panels. Right and have everything work. Speaker 1 10:30 Yeah, another plant that's like five miles from me is ultra craft. I don't think they do inset though. Paul McAlary 10:35 Now there are frameless cabinet brands. So they don't do in that's a whole different animal. It's ultra craft, like Ikea frameless like IKEA. It's not put together, you know it comes assembled. But it's the same thing. There's no front on the cabinet. There's no solid wood front on the cabinet. It's just a box A particleboard box with doors on it. Unknown Speaker 10:57 Are you familiar with wood harbor? Paul McAlary 10:59 Wood harbor? I don't know. But we've probably read it on our website doesn't I don't know it that well off the top of my head. Unknown Speaker 11:06 Okay, Paul McAlary 11:07 we've probably read it on our website. If it's a price level five, then it probably doesn't set. Speaker 1 11:14 Okay. I think you rate I think you re built on as a 4.5, which Paul McAlary 11:24 would be the least expensive cabinet brand that you'll find that will do the inset. Speaker 1 11:30 You know, and I've seen their product. And I think it looks pretty good. Honestly, Paul McAlary 11:34 I think it's very nice. I like fieldstone Speaker 1 11:37 fieldstone is offering a 20% discount right now. The promotional? That's good. I don't know if that's a typical thing, or if it's just well, just the luck of the draw. Paul McAlary 11:48 Yeah, I don't know, big promotions I am always very suspicious of. But you know, the one thing is, is don't rush to get your order in only because it's going to be very, very complicated. And you're very, very, very far away from ordering a kitchen. I mean, just the the thought process, you have to go through to create goods like these and do inset cabinets, or you're going to get appliances, like refrigerators that are very expensive that accept animals. Charles 12:20 No, I'm going to use a standard refrigerator. And Paul McAlary 12:22 then the other thing too, I'd say about the designs that you're sending me. They're pretty ornate. They're what's called French Country kitchens. And the only thing I tell you is they went out of style 10 years ago, 15 years ago. So it's not something that we do very often now. So I mean, Speaker 1 12:44 what is in style now. But yeah, that's a trend, I think that comes and goes, we like the raised panel door, just because we think it's gonna, it's tried and true, it's gonna last more than the shaker, Paul McAlary 12:58 you can get a recessed panel door, that wasn't a raised panel door. The raised panel doors haven't been popular now for 20 years. So it's not something that's coming back soon. Right? It they haven't been popular for 20 years. So you know, and now probably raised panel doors in our company. We probably sell under 5% raised panel doors, there's all kinds of recessed panel doors, with all kinds of profiles and everything else. But literally raised panel doors, probably 5%, maybe no more than 10% of all our sales. So it's something that you want in mind only, if you don't care about resale value for your home, then it doesn't make a difference. You just do whatever you want. Do the style that you like, if you're planning on getting money back for the kitchen that you're creating, and you pick a style that 95% of the other people in the world wouldn't be picking then, you know, although in your area, where are you located? Charles 14:04 North Carolina. Paul McAlary 14:05 So in North and is it a rural area of North Carolina? It is. So rural areas like even in upstate Pennsylvania and rural areas down south generally are at least 10 years behind or 15 years behind the trends that happened in the rest of the world. So in your area, probably it's only 10 years out of style, a raised panel door. But if you looked at the new homes that people are building and things like that in your area, they'll still be flat panels, but you probably have a long long road tents, those areas tend to do the same things that our areas do just 10 or 15 years later. You know you got a Long You got a long comeback to raise Pat. Speaker 1 14:50 We haven't come back. What's number one right now? Paul McAlary 14:54 Well, number one is still Shaker Doors but people are getting sick of that and it's people are getting away from it. So that trend right now is changing rapidly, but it's still probably 50% of all kidding. So Charles 15:10 what was what are people gravitating to? Paul McAlary 15:12 Now, it's people are changing to different colors in cabinets, like islands that are different colors than regular kitchens, kitchens that are not all white anymore. People are getting away from all white kitchens. And people are getting recessed doors, but with profiles on, you know, so inside profiles, like you know, the first kitchen that you set is a recessed panel door, right though the gruel kitchen remodel picture with that big hood and everything on it. Those aren't raised doors, those are recessed panel doors that are not Shaker Doors, they're recessed panel. Yeah. So that would be a popular door style that. And then the other thing I would say about those big giant hoods that go down to the countertop, they were always something that I hated. And the reason that I hate them, is you have this big giant stove or big giant cooktop, which the only reason to have it is that you cook a lot, or the only reason to really use it is that you really want to do some great cooking projects. But when the hood comes down to the countertop, you just ruin the countertop, working space on each side of the scope. So yeah, the people that do that big hood, with the thing coming down to the stove, they usually don't even cook, right, they're only people that are rich people that just want to look at this thing. And they're never even going to cook on the stove, they might even be getting European stove. But if you really want to work in your kitchen, I don't go all the way down to the countertop, you can do that kind of wood, and just stop it at the same level as the wall cabinets. And then you'll have continuous countertop where you could be cutting and chopping and working at that mean the handles of the pots and pans. When they turn out. They're actually going to be hitting it those pots and pans hands are going to be hitting those things coming down. Yeah, Speaker 1 17:09 yeah, we were going to do more like what's in slot six, you know, with a tapered hood, you know, maybe metal, you know, with with trim at the bottom or something like that. Okay. Do you have any experience with like galley sinks? Paul McAlary 17:25 Do you mean like workstation six? Like really, really big things with have all kinds of things, that slide and everything else? Charles 17:33 Yeah, yeah. Paul McAlary 17:35 Well, the only thing is, is that those kinds of sinks I think are great. However, people always asked me well, what's a good style for a kitchen? And the answer is, if you're a kitchen designer, you can't have one style that like, your job is to figure out what style your customer likes, and then to design within that style, so that you can help them get a kitchen that makes sense. So we have to design an ultra modern kitchens, we have to design and in French Country kitchens, we have to design and transitional and traditional, all these different styles. But that workstation sink doesn't look so great, with a very traditional French Country kind of kitchen. So the more ornate The kitchen is, as it gets more and more ornate and maybe gets more and more white, the more and more likely it is to be either an undermount, or a farm sink, or something a little bit simpler, without all that different stuff. So that's really why you really, I think, want to look for a good to find yourself a good kitchen designer, at a dealership that sells one of these brands that will help you. And when you get a good kitchen designer, and you get plans, you can call into the podcast again. And we can review your plans and take a look at them. Because especially if you're doing this kind of kitchen, it's so complicated. And we know that even our own kitchen designers, when they do these designs, it gets reviewed by several people. And it usually takes a bunch of us to get it all right. Because it's pretty hot, right? I mean, it's really it's difficult. And then most companies don't do that. So usually when we get plans and drawings, there's mistakes that we find in them that we can help you correct. Speaker 1 19:20 Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you know, the takeaway here is it sounds like fieldstone rises to the top in terms of value. Paul McAlary 19:29 That's probably going to be the best value that or Starmark because it's the same thing as fieldstone. Or the probably the absolutely least expensive brand. That does inset to my knowledge is decor and that's a pretty big brand because that's a master brands brand. Charles 19:52 Is that and I don't usually Paul McAlary 19:54 decor D C O R A, D C O Ra, that should be around a lot. When I sold the floor. They didn't do inset cabinets. But I know that they do inset cabinets. I don't think they're quite as nice a finish maybe, as the fields don't cabinets, but they should be less expensive. They used to be constructed a little bit nicer than the fieldstone. But they had a hanging rail and some other stuff that made them a pretty well made cabinet. It's another one of these and it's probably in my knowledge, it would be the least expensive company that would do in set. Okay. And again, they also are sold at home at some Home Depot's and I again, I don't think that the Home Depot's and the Lowe's stores do that even though if the cabinet brand does the inset, I think they prevent the designers from selling it. So they're not allowed to sell it. At least around here. Right. And I wouldn't go through it because it's hard. Speaker 1 20:59 Yeah, no, I agree. So those are the three to work with star Mark, which is the same as fieldstone. Paul McAlary 21:05 You know, if you're looking to get inside cabinets from a good company, that's going to be at the bottom end of the price point. Speaker 1 21:13 Well, here's the thing. So this, this feels from promotional ends, February the 12th. So we want to move, you know, quickly Paul McAlary 21:21 to get to get working on your design fast. Yeah. Speaker 1 21:26 Yeah, I mean, these Excel fields, don't they'll do that. You just explain to them what you want. And they'll draw something up and render it and you'll say, well change this, change that and then yeah, but Paul McAlary 21:37 if you're going to do this, right, you shouldn't be leading the charge, you should show the designer, the pictures, and then the designer takes the measurements. The first step, if you're supplying the measurements to a kitchen designer, then we know that their company stinks, right? No good company's gonna take anybody's measurements, we wouldn't do that, we know that every customer would get the wrong measurements, and their kitchen wouldn't fit. If we're going to have good relationships with customers, we have to come out in measure. So the first step in this process is a professional comes out to your house, they measure everything they take a look at what's in the walls may be that you're going to be taking out just to make sure that they can catch something that you might not have thought of a lot of times people say, well, it's not a load bearing wall. And first of all, if they're wrong, but then even if they're right, load bearing walls aren't hard for us to take out. It's the hard part is is what if there's lots of heating ducts, or a plumbing stack that's in the wall, then suddenly getting mad, I think moved or relocated can be a real challenge for the kitchen designer. So really, when we're designing your kitchens, we have to figure out how we're fighting any plumbing lines that we have to move or stacks that we have to move, or anything else that's in the wall that makes it a challenge, how it's going to be done. Yeah. We're working on all of that stuff. Go to the fieldstone place, get them to come out and measure and if they say to you, uh, we don't do measurements, then you have you can't work I could give your kitchen to a tons of designers that even are not tons but some of the designers that work for me, and they've been doing it for 30 years, and they wouldn't that might help. What do you Speaker 1 23:20 what are you planning in as far as flooring, we were thinking about hardwood, not real hardwood floors, not the laminate stuff. Okay, Paul McAlary 23:28 real hardwood is you can sand it down, if you get if it gets damaged or anything. Yeah, I like hardwood, it gets nicked and scratched and needs to be touched up and, and sanded. Sometimes in your kitchen takes a lot of beating. You know, especially some of the appliances. Like if you did get a five foot like in the picture, the first picture you got, you got a five foot array that weighs 800 pounds. So getting that stove in place without scratching the floor is difficult for the people moving it in. Same thing if you're getting really big refrigerators or anything else. So you just got to be careful and you know if it's a porcelain tile, and it's installed correctly, that's indestructible, but then that's hard and cold on your feet. So, yeah, the hardwood just as good is nice and it's really popular now. You just you know if it does get scratched. A lot of times what happens with hardwood is that the contractor has put it in and put the cabinet's in and they don't do a final finish on the hardwood until after the kitchen is pretty much done. Right? Speaker 1 24:34 We'll put a cup fall it will sort of maybe two or three coats of polyurethane on it and then install the cameras in new light sand and do a final coat at the very end. Yeah, that's Paul McAlary 24:42 a good idea. One thing is is if you're doing hardwood, if you pick either a natural finish or a dark finish, then it's very easy to touch up. A natural finish. Scratch is natural, so you don't have to worry about scratches you Just urethane over them, right? We're seeing them and urethane over them and you're fine, dark finishes, if they get scratched and you touch it up with a stain, the stain will come out a little darker than the wood was because it's rougher. But because it's such a dark floor, it won't be very noticeable. If you have a medium color stain, and it gets scratched, there's no way to really touch it up. Because if you were to put stain on it, because the scratch will be rough, the stain will come out very dark, and it will make your scratch that much more obvious. So that just the reason why a lot of the times natural finishes and dark wood finishes are so popular in hardwood floors. Charles 25:43 Right. Got it? Paul McAlary 25:46 So, but yeah, so you know, get to work. And maybe we'll see you again. Okay, on a future call. And if you're looking for numbers, has anybody giving you any numbers yet? Speaker 1 25:58 I had a quote gone and fold for crafts. And it was like $50,000 just kept snow tops. Paul McAlary 26:05 Yeah, so I would think that you're looking at even in fieldstone will anyone remember Ultra craft is nowhere near as well made or anything else, and doesn't have any of these things, these looks and everything that you know, it's really ultra craft because it's a frameless cabinet, their specialty we will be modern cabinets, not more traditional. And the traditional looks if you do get corbels. And you get fancy hoods and things like that those things can be very expensive. So I would think that you're looking at more than 50 Certain things even in decor, or you might be at 60 or something like that. But it will come down to when they're designing it. How exactly it's designed. So there'll be lots of different choices that you'll have. Speaker 1 26:53 I got a I got, you know, a conceptual or budget calls of 85,000. With the brain. I'm like, yeah, Paul McAlary 27:05 that cat that's cabinets. And does that include countertops? Does that include sinks, faucets, flooring? Charles 27:14 No, just cabinet smoke flooring? Yeah, Paul McAlary 27:17 you should be able to stay under 85,000. Yeah, in the other? Speaker 1 27:24 Well, I mean, if I mean, if you could get 20%. You know, let's say if it's 70. And we that's $14,000. Right? That's a discount. That could be huge. Sure. Paul McAlary 27:35 Yeah. That's a big discount, you know? So that makes me wonder, right? I mean, when once a discount is 20% I don't know that there's ever been a 20% discount that any cabinet company we've ever sold ever had a 10% discount was probably the biggest I've ever known. So once you start getting 20% discounts, it sort of makes me think that it's really not a 20% discount, they increased the price by 15 20%, and then lowered it by 20. Right only because if you got a 20% discount, and you're more how much you're marking up the cabinets, right. So let's say you're a pretty, pretty reasonable dealer, so that like we would be. And if we're marking up the cabinet, you know, the cabinet company itself, can't I mean, if they had, if they had a 20% discount themselves, that would be gigantic, right? So it's got to be some combination of the manufacturer and the retailer, or whatever. But everybody's making so much less money in less than marking the cabinet's up 100% first, and then giving you 20% off, right? If they're marking the cabinets up, like we marked cabinets up, generally about six 60%. So we buy the cabinets from the manufacturer for $10,000, we sell them for 16. So if we gave you a 20% discount, and it was coming out of our pocket, now suddenly, you'd be paying us for $12,500 or something like $12,700. And we paid 10,000 for it. So we'd only be making two and a half $1,000 for all of this work and warranting it and having to correct our mistakes and everything else. So when you get the 20% that number two scares me a little bit, because it just means how are they doing it? It seems like well, they couldn't have been a good Bible for them. But Speaker 1 29:37 right so you know, when it comes to, you know, getting the final price, what's the what's the best way to get the best price and I know that risks come into play here. For example, if I were to say more of the risk, could I possibly leverage the price down some? No, I Paul McAlary 29:54 think it's the opposite. Right? That if you to assume more of the risk and Nobody ever gives you a discount for accepting more of the risk. Like, if you said to us just use our measurements, we know that your job would be going on for two years, right? Because it'd be so many mistakes in it, we couldn't help you because we didn't measure it or do anything. So you'd be a customer that would just never go away. And we wouldn't even sell you the kitchen. If a customer is going to buy $100,000 in cabinets from us, but their whole business model is crazy. We don't want their business will be able to sell $300,000 of other people's kitchens in the same amount of time and be making money. So yeah, I mean, assuming more of the risk, sort of just means that somebody's that much more likely to be ripping you off. Okay. I mean, you really have to have your kitchen be successful, somebody's got to be good at this. And then if they're good at it, they won't like, which is also discounts that sort of disappear over time. Forcing people to buy when possibly they're not ready, is also sort of not a great idea, right? Speaker 1 31:04 What's what Yeah, so what is the best strategy for sourcing at the best price? Paul McAlary 31:08 I think the best strategy is, you're not looking for the brand, as much as you're looking for the company that you're buying your cabinets from, and the designer that's designing it. So like, if you were gonna get it transmission done on your car, you wouldn't be trying to figure out how to do the transmission yourself, you'd be just looking for reviews and everything of the company, the garage, that we would be doing your transmission, and seeing that they got good reviews and everything else, and that they did a lot of transmissions and that the reviews talked about transmissions and things like that. And then that company, if they're good at doing it, then they'll have one of these brands, they'll have the floor, they'll have fieldstone, they'll have star Mark, and you can double check that before you work with them. But if you find the right company, I can make your kitchen 20% Less, just by making changes to it that you wouldn't even realize what being done. If we made the panels of middle panels hardwood, because you told us to that wouldn't even be smart, it would be better to do a recessed panel and an MDF. But there's all kinds of different ways that kitchen designers can modify designs, and 510 15%, edit, clip, save customers money over one version versus another. Do we have a whole blog on that too. If you're when you're really working the price, compare one thing to another, and you shop things around all over the place, sooner or later, you just run into the person that's dishonest. And then you will never be sophisticated enough to know when they're stealing from. Right. So you want to look to find somebody that's good. And that gets good recommendations that people think does a good job and is helpful, and that's ripping them off. And then work with that. Right only because they'll have your best interest at heart because they're good designers and they're good at their job. And then they'll help direct you. And they'll show you how to save money. They'll say, you know, this door style that you're getting is a mitered door style. And it makes it 20% more expensive. Whereas this door style isn't a miter door style, and the seams aren't going to open up. So it's going to look better over time. And it's going to save you 20% versus the con that you just point to the miter door style. And then they just give it to you because it's more expensive. And you know, never have that conversation. Okay, that would be the strategy that I it's certainly not the strategy that most people use. But it is the strategy that I use. A lot of times when I'm in over my head, when I'm dealing with internet companies or advertisers that know more about something than I know, then I look for the company that you know, has the best reputation and then take their advice, right? And then they're like, Well, what would you like here? And I just, you know, I'll say, Well, what do you recommend? And they laugh, they go most people just tell us and I said well, now you're the expert, what do you recommend? And they think I'm a great customer because I'm taking their recommendations, but it's because I'm in over my head. And that's a good way to do it is to shop around to find a good company. And then once you find them, don't micromanage them, let them help you. Yeah, right. Okay. Okay. Appreciate you, Tom. Good talking to you, Charles. You too. Bye. Mark Mitten 34:25 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality, custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai