Mark Mitten  0:04  
You work for the kitchen cabinet Manufacturers Association doing valuable work for kitchen cabinet consumers and manufacturers do you want to get the word out? You better call.

Paul McAlary  0:32  
For our listeners, today, we have a little bit of a different program. We're talking to Betsy mattes, the CEO of the kitchen cabinet Manufacturers Association, and chuck on the vice president of the KCMA. Just for listeners so you can understand what our relationship and your relationship is, with the KCMA is we're have cabinet dealers. So what we do is we sell cabinets to the general public. And the cabinets that we sell are manufactured by cabinet manufacturers. And pretty much all the cabinet manufacturers in the United States are certified by the KCMA, as certainly any of the ones that we sell. And sometimes our interests all align. And then sometimes the customer's interests are a little different from our interests as dealers, and they make possibly the KCMA. And then sometimes the KCMA is interests as though cabinet manufacturers could be different from the interests of the kitchen cabinet dealers and the customers in some respects. Just as far as that we all have. We're the middlemen between the two ends of the spectrum essentially. 

Betsy Natz  1:40  
So as cabinet dealers, kitchen cabinet Manufacturers Association appreciates these opportunities to reach out to our various channels of distribution, our customer, so thank you. To answer your question. A KC May was formed almost 70 years ago, in 1955. And the pioneers at that time formed the organization to address issues of the day, I suspect there were regulatory issues concerning workplace exposure issues relative to Sol dust, other issues.

EPA at that point had not been formed yet, but certainly we've addressed many issues since then. And not too long after KCMA was formed. The pioneers at the time, decided that they wanted to implement a certification program, which is a performance based standard, and it's a part of the American National Standards Institute. And Chuck will talk about this, our a one six 1.1 program, and then later established an environmental stewardship program with which Chuck also manages, we have a variety of value propositions that we provide to our members. Our members are domestic at cabinet manufacturers that includes Canada, and

are located throughout the United States, we have a footprint in every single state. We represent 150, cabinet makers and more than 250,000 American jobs. 40% of those incidentally, are from underserved communities. And then the other part of our membership are companies that supply products to the industry. So they might be companies that supplied the hardware, you know, the knobs, the hinges, the slides, paints and coatings, companies, wood products, companies, and so on and so forth. So we have two annual meetings that we host a spring up on meeting gives members the opportunity to connect to gives our associate members those that supplied in the industry an opportunity to collaborate with their customers or potential customers. We have our three certification programs that Chuck will speak about, we have various statistics programs that we offer our members, I handle all of our regulatory and legislative issues, as well as the trade case that we launched back on March the sixth of 2019. So that we are structured in a typical way of other trade associations, we answer to a board of directors. We have an executive committee and then about seven other committees,

communications and Regulatory Affairs and so on and so forth. I could probably go on and on and on about KCMA but the

Paul McAlary  4:49  
KCMA logo, the stamp or whatever, if for any of our listeners, if you open your kitchen cabinet, you may see that it's a it's a red stamp if I remember right, isn't it

Chuck Arnold  4:59  
well There's actually two of them, we have a green symbol. Okay, the green symbol is for environmental stewardship program. And then there's a blue and white, so blue and white. Right, right. And the blue and white is for our quality program based on the fancy KCNA a 160 1.1. Standard,

Paul McAlary  5:19  
right. I think that's the one that I was thinking, I don't know why I must be colorblind or something.

Chuck Arnold  5:23  
You also have a third program, it's not as prominent, it's for severe use cabinets, those cabinets that go into places where you expect a higher level of abuse, you can have high turnover apartment complexes, college dormitories, because college kids take care of

Paul McAlary  5:47  
stuff, my house because I'm really rough on things.

Chuck Arnold  5:51  
Things like that. So yeah, we do we do have those three programs. Okay. KCMA wrote the first performance standard for cabinetry back in 1965. The and what I mean by a performance standard is it contains a bunch of test methods that the cabinets need to meet those test methods simulate what a typical consumer will subject their cabinets to. So you can think of things like door cycling, drawer cycling, impact on the front on the base cabinet door, they're staying in chemical testing that gets done on the cabinet. Wait, I would assume yes, yes. In the chest, where you open the base cabinet door, you suspend a 65 pound weight on it. Okay, besides lid opening closed a few times. I know that when I reach into my base cabinet to pull something out, I oftentimes support myself by the door with that particular test simulates. So, yeah, it's it's an ANC standard, meaning that we follow the ancy process for the revision of the standard. And see has all sorts of rules and requirements that I need to comply with to make sure that that standard is developed in a fair and unbiased way. We revised that standard every five years or there abouts. The latest version is the 2022 version of the standard and, and we do update it. There were you know, in recent years, wall hung vanity cabinets have come onto the market, those that don't rest on the floor and realize this, and we developed a test method that was appropriate in

Paul McAlary  7:39  
that most of the wall hung vanity cabinet that I've seen, if you're not supporting it in a way other than just mounting the cabinet to the wall, it's probably not long for this world. So what's the testing method that you is there?

Chuck Arnold  7:56  
So for cabinets that are up to 60 inches in width, there is a 600 pound load that is applied downward load applied to the cabinet, the cabinet can't come off the wall, the pieces can't separate. Yeah, it has to remain intact. We actually engaged a firm and an independent firm to look into this. And they did a human factor study for us. And they figured the worst case scenario would be a large man climbing up on top of the vanity to change the lightbulbs in the in the fixture above the sink,

Paul McAlary  8:33  
you're telling me that I mean, somehow I got a feeling that when I opened the doors on all of the wall hung vanity cabinets that I've seen, and I'm not going to see the KCMA logo on that particular cabinet. Because I can't envision any of these things. It's that's a pretty stringent test.

Chuck Arnold  8:52  
It is a fairly stringent test, it does have a safety factor built in. They took the 99th percentile weight of a man and then built a safety factor into it. Okay, as with most of the other test methods in the a 160 1.1 standard.

Betsy Natz  9:09  
I would say that the NCAA one six 1.1 program that was written by the KCMA founders, the organization is a rigorous test their heat and humidity and you know, Phil test that Chuck talked about edgebanding test and so on and so forth and check what is it about 50% of the cabinets that go through the first round of testing for the first time new certification companies fail, is that right? And they have to make alterations to make sure that the next time they send the cabinet in it actually passes.

Chuck Arnold  9:47  
Yes, you are correct for first time participants those that have never been in the program before that are just coming into it. We do a qualification testing to cover all Have the variety of what they offer. And so we just don't select the base 30 and a wall 3030 of one style. If they do framed and frameless, we need to pick up on those differences. If they do, paint and stain finish thermofoil veneer edge banded, what have you need to test out all of those various finishes as well. And yes, there's about a 50% failure rate when coming in. But usually the failures are easy things to resolve. And we do a lot of retesting, to make sure that what they've implemented in the manufacturing process related to that failure actually has worked. Okay, well, that's good to know.

Betsy Natz  10:47  
And I would also say that the companies that test in to the program that are able to carry or seals, be it in the inside of the base cabinet and under your sink, or through their promotional materials, it does really serve as a differentiator. Consumers oftentimes, especially in the economy, that we're in, want to know that the cabinets they purchase will stand the test of time. And so our seal really means something to the consumer, is what we're finding in a lot of our focus group testing.

Paul McAlary  11:25  
You mentioned the 2019, trade, whatever is that the lawsuit that was brought up between the Mad cabinet manufacturers in the United States and people that were importing cabinets from Asia, China to start with or whatever. Yeah,

Betsy Natz  11:43  
so I can I can address that. Back in 2017. The industry noticed that even though the housing market was booming, their sales were down significantly. And so we took a couple years, it takes a long time to do the analysis. And we found that over that previous three years, we had lost the domestic cabinet industry has lost 40% of its market share to China. And so through a lot of investigation and several law firms, we launched a trade case against China, on March the sixth of 2019. And when you launch cases like this, there are actually two cases that one goes to the International Trade Commission. And the other petition goes to the Department of Commerce, the International Trade Commission at the time was made up of five commissioners, and they have to vote in favor of that, in order to win, they have to vote in favor the domestic industry, that in fact, that industry had been either threatened of injury or actually materially injured as a result of unfair trade. So in March of 2020, in a vote of five to zero, the International Trade Commission, the commissioners voted, that in fact, the domestic industry had been materially injured, not threatened, but actual higher bar. And so in April of 20/28, the duties were put in place in the Department of Commerce assessed duties of up to 260%. So those orders were put in place of April in April 2020. And we saw our industry come back and come back in, you know, at enormous levels. We had in you know, 1000s of employees that were hired during that period, capital investments, expansions, new facilities that were being built. And what we've seen since then, is that China has a lot of tactics in their toolbox to get around or trying to get around these tariffs. And so there are numerous ways in which they do that. One of those is through transshipment. So they'll take their product, be at cabinet components, car, or flat packs, those are both in our scope of the investigation. They'll take that material, they'll ship it through a third country, and then they'll ship it into the United States, thereby disguising the fact that the product actually originated in China. So we have a work with Customs and Border Protection on what's called these IP allegations invest in protect Act, which is a congressionally mandated legislation to bring to light several of these companies that actually trans shipped and what we did two years ago is we launched an investigation app petitioning the Department of Commerce, to take it on themselves to determine which companies are shipping in products from Vietnam and Malaysia, in particular, into the United States, that products are actually originating in China. And so we also said the Department of Commerce, those companies that are shipping in product that are legitimately made in those countries should be able to ship in at without paying the tariffs. So next Friday, April, the fifth, the Department of Commerce will be rendering its final decision on the scope and circumvention petition. And we are hopeful that commerce will institute the certification regime which simply put will track the chain of custody of those products that are coming into the country to determine if they are in fact, legitimately being produced in legitimate factories in those two countries. Or if they're being trans shipped. And if they are, they will get the red light can't ship it in without paying the 260% tariffs. Or if they are being made in those countries, then there'll be greenlighted, and we'll be able to ship in duty free. And so we've got a lot of cases that we're working at the same time, these are not inexpensive endeavors. The onus is on domestic industry to track the cheaters and file these cases at a at a fairly significant, you know, price tag with respect to attorneys

Paul McAlary  16:42  
fees. For us, as dealers, we carry cabinet brands. Probably most of our cabinet brands are strictly US manufacturers, whatever brands we carry is fab you wood, which is a cabinet brand that is made in Vietnam, I think there's other brands that we used to carry that might be on your list of companies that got caught trying to trend ship cabinets, but one of the things for us is these inexpensive cabinet brands when they were coming onto the market. Many of these brands were all plywood construction, they were using solid wood Dovetail drawers, they were using belongs tracks and Blum Hinges for their cabinets. And so they actually were allowing the general public to get a better constructed cabinet for less money. So and if you're a cabinet dealer, if we're going to be able to meet the price points of all the customers that contact us, then you have to carry everything from inexpensive, well made cabinetry up to very expensive, well made cabinetry, and certainly the least expensive and well constructed cabinetry is all going to have some kind of important parts. Hopefully, that it's not parts that are coming from China and our trans ship. And that may be where our points of view sort of are against against odds only because we're dealing with the end user and trying to supply everybody that the whole spectrum. And if you guys have your druthers, probably it would be everything will be strictly us. Right. Well,

Betsy Natz  18:21  
to one of your points, I think that we have if you look at our membership, companies that produce some of the highest quality cabinets, you you can find a be it domestic or you know, made outside of the US. And I will say this that our companies in the KCMA are all about free trade. And we compete all day long with one another what what we are not in favor of our cabinets that are being imported in the US that are either being dumped or trans shipped. And so we don't believe that's, that's,

Paul McAlary  19:06  
that's fair trade that they're being subsidized by the Chinese government or right. And

Betsy Natz  19:11  
so, again, you know, we're all about free trade. We just want to make sure that's fair trade.

Paul McAlary  19:17  
Okay. What's the difference between the Casey Ma's whatever the environmental certificate that you guys have, versus TSCA, title six, which is sort of done by a third party, is it set as your guys certification sort of similar to that which would have been the carb two thing from California from years ago? Or what's that certificate? Those

Chuck Arnold  19:42  
are really two independent issues even though they do seem somewhat related. Betsy can talk to you know, the Federal formaldehyde regulation, Tosca title six and the history of carb as far as our environmental stewardship program At one point in time, when carb was not mandated throughout the United States, we wrote into the ESP standard that you needed to be you the products that you purchased and used and making the cabinets needed to be carb compliant. But ever since the federal government stepped in, and again, Betsy can talk a lot more about this, and made for Manitoba formaldehyde regulation, a federal law, it's no longer part of the ESP standard, because everyone needs to comply, everybody

Paul McAlary  20:37  
needs to become to comply with that. So

Betsy Natz  20:40  
yeah, just real quick carb, carb phase one and later, phase two came about after the hurricane Katrina issue. And so they developed a standard app for products made with the formaldehyde blue line. And so that can be composite wood products, hardwood plywood, OSB what have you, and set levels, that companies had to meet through third party testing. And then companies within the US that manufactured those products, went to the federal government and said, Look, why don't we make a national standard? versus just having a you know, the California standard. So Tosca title six, was a proposed regulation that came out eight years ago and finalized about seven years ago. And so what was then a California regulation now is a federal regulation. So anyone that manufactures wood products must meet the standards that are within the federal regulation. And so what that what that means is that if you are manufacturing composite wood products, you have to send quarterly, you have to send your material to a third party approved EPA testing laboratory to ensure that it meets those levels that's

Paul McAlary  22:13  
covered by the federal government, what are your guys's tests,

Chuck Arnold  22:16  
so our environmental stewardship program or more

Paul McAlary  22:19  
like is that more like, recycling kind of the thing and not a voc kind of thing? That's

Chuck Arnold  22:26  
part of it, but it's much, much broader. We like to call the environmental stewardship program, the ESP program, it's a very broad approach to environmental sustainability. Some programs out there now take a very narrow focus on environmental sustainability, maybe focusing on just recycling products, or calculating your co2 emissions. The ESP does contain both of those. And also sections in there on air quality and pollution prevention, resource sustainability, waste minimization, there's a section on environmental stewardship, and community relations. Now, unlike the a 161 program, which is a testing program, right, this is what we call a prescriptive standard. So for each of those five chapters I mentioned, there are a bunch of practices within those chapters that if a manufacturer can demonstrate that they comply with, they can earn points towards certification, okay. So they need to earn points and all five of those chapters to make sure that they're covering a broad range of environmental sustainability. And they need to earn at least 70 points to get certified. Okay.

Paul McAlary  23:48  
Interesting. So

Chuck Arnold  23:50  
it's been around since 20, or 2006. Did I get that right? Yeah. doesn't fix it. So we're enjoying that make it into an indoor 19th year. Does that have a map? Yeah. 18 year old program. But anyway, we have about 50 participants in that particular program. It's a voluntary program. This is one of those that's not regulated or mandated out there. About 50 participants in the environmental stewardship program. And with those 50 participants, there's probably over 70 brands, over 80 brands that are ESP serving, okay, I'm wondering,

Paul McAlary  24:34  
anybody that's read freakanomics will know that sort of the theory behind that book was just that a lot of times sometimes things that you haven't considered affect how environmentally friendly are the cabinet's if they don't last quite as long. So we've succeeded in making an environmentally friendly cabinet but if its lifespan is 20 years, then A little slightly less environmentally friendly cabinet that has a lifespan of 60 years would actually be a more environmentally environmentally friendly cabinet over the long haul, because the kitchen would wouldn't be being replaced multiple times over its life. In that respect. I'm just sort of curious, or most of the brands that meet the certification frameless, or are they framed. We

Chuck Arnold  25:24  
have a variety of participants in the program. And so it's across both spectrums, framed frameless stock, semi custom, custom, very small companies, very, very large companies. Okay, it just runs the gamut. So it I guess, to get to your point to just because it might be an environmentally friendly cabinet. In no way does that mean that it's a lower quality or less durability? Factor,

Betsy Natz  25:57  
I would submit that it's the other way around. That it's the higher end, semi to custom cabinetry that carry the ESP seal.

Paul McAlary  26:11  
Now, I'm not really that familiar with which brands are carrying it, which brands aren't. I would just sort of wondering if, since so many of the frameless cabinets are particleboard sides instead of plywood sides. That's using wood products much more efficiently, and you can reuse and reuse your scraps and everything else. You know, I was wondering if those frameless brands are the brand, the brands that the sides of the cabinets are particleboard versus plywood. We're passing those tests more than the plywood cabinetry or the friend the frameless versus the framed cabinetry. Yeah,

Chuck Arnold  26:46  
yeah, in terms of testing on the framed and frameless, regardless of the construction, regardless of the materials used, how they're put together, they need to pass the test methods. Okay, I'm sure there are certain test methods that are more difficult for frameless to pass, and some test methods that people would say might be a little bit more difficult for framed cabinet cabinets. Okay.

Betsy Natz  27:13  
And what's interesting is, of course, you know, the consumers drive the market demand. And in this country, framed cabinets are still I would say 95% of what's produced in the US, we are seeing more and more of our companies that have been traditionally all framed cabinet moved to incorporating a frameless line. But in terms of companies that are ESP certified, you look at showplace and Belmont and wellborn, and so on, and so forth. There are a lot of companies that feel like our ESP program is important to their business and to their, you know it to their, you know, to how they feel about the environment. The other thing I would say, you know, just building on to Chuck's point, we have had 1000s and 1000s of companies that have tested in over the years to our ancy program, the performance based probe that's on that's been a program that's been around for a very long time and a lot of credibility behind that, as well as the ESP. A, but I just thought that was worth mentioning.

Paul McAlary  28:35  
Yeah, I think it was something that really surprised me Sorry to interrupt was that 50% of the people that applied the first time through didn't pass, which means a rigorous cap. Yeah. So it means that we you guys are certainly bringing people bringing the standard of cabinetry construction up higher. And, you know, certainly I think cabinetry in general mean that the inexpensive brands we carry now use better hinges and better tracks than the most expensive custom cabinetry that, you know, might have been available 20 years ago, just because the hardware in the our industry has improved so dramatically, where we definitely are an industry that the products are getting better as time goes by.

Chuck Arnold  29:19  
All I wanted to touch on something that you mentioned earlier, you said that you really didn't know who was ESP certified. I think maybe I'm paraphrasing a little bit on that. So it's easy for someone to use our website KCMA you know, you can you can get on our website. And you can search for certified manufacturers. You can you can filter by, you know the performance certification, you can filter by environmental stewardship or severe use, and it's it's really easy to locate and we're going to

Paul McAlary  29:52  
have a link in your website on our podcast, so that anybody listening to this that wants to click through and then do any of these searches will be able to perfect. I'm just so we don't run out of time. And I was intrigued that you guys now we're starting a design competition. This is the first year for it, right?

Betsy Natz  30:13  
Yes. So we launched the, it's our, it's our Yeah, inaugural year probably launched it a couple of two or three months ago. And we close that out at the end of March. So I guess the end of this week, and then we have five judges that will go through the process of reviewing the submissions, and then we will announce the winner at our spring meeting in later in April, in Austin, Texas.

Paul McAlary  30:44  
All of these design competitions, I think, do our industry a service. Very excited about it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to see sometimes for me, as a designer, some of the competition sometimes like the, the NKBA, the National Kitchen and Bath Association, which, you know, we're members of etc. And is there the people that really sort of represent us as designers, sometimes when their kitchens come out, then we get frustrated when the designs don't meet our criteria for better designs. A lot of times, it's the manufacturers, and sometimes some of the builders have also their own competitions, and they do a better job than we do ourselves essentially. So it'd be interesting to see what critique your guys winners and stuff and see how you guys do versus versus our own entity that we all belong to. Yeah. So yeah, so anything else that's on the agenda? I know that you're just finding out about but the import crisis, but any other things that you're lobbying for with the government Betsy to make the change are not what they are now.

Betsy Natz  31:54  
You know, I will say that over the years, we have fought on many regulatory fronts. But if you if you look at what EPA and OSHA and HUD have done over the years, the EPA, we are so heavily regulated already, that they're, I can't think of many more standards that they could come out with that. And then if you look at OSHA, OSHA, there is an interesting regulation that is pending, the proposed rule came out last week, and it is on formaldehyde. And I would say 99% of our companies no longer use formaldehyde as a glue line, that EPA, for the first time in its history will not only look at emissions from wood products, in you know, outdoor air indoor environments, but they also have the ability, and we'll be looking at formaldehyde exposures in the workplace, which is a huge departure because OSHA has traditionally regulated workplace exposures within the Department of Labor. We'll see how this there's a lot of industry organizations that are very concerned about this proposed regulation that came out last week, there's going to be a lot of lobbying comments filed extensions filed litigation.

Paul McAlary  33:24  
That's a whole nother branch of government getting involved, huh. Yeah,

Betsy Natz  33:28  
it's for EPA to get involved in OSHA issues. I, I it's it's just It's curious how that works. But we are a part of a couple of different coalition's that are working on this. It's kind of outside of our scope, if you will, but we are watching it closely. Okay.

Paul McAlary  33:47  
Interesting. All right. So I think we pretty much took about the amount of time that we thought and we I certainly learned a lot about how about how the KCMA works, and what you're doing for me that I didn't even realize you were doing for me. And that the screening process is as rigorous as it is, which is a good thing, I think, for everybody involved. And then anybody that's listening to this podcast that really wants to learn more, can go to your link to your guy's website and look at the brands of cabinets that they're considering. We actually rate cabinets on our own website across, I think 130 Different cabinet brands, and we rate them on their construction and price point and value and stuff like that. And I think that as far as I understand, our ratings are actually used more than consumer reports as a consumer rating system for cabinets, but certainly the combination of the KCMA and our ratings will help people understand that much more.

Betsy Natz  34:46  
Can you remind us what that site is called?

Paul McAlary  34:49  
The name of our site is mainline kitchen design. So it's the name of our company, and if you go on our site, or if you can probably don't have to even go on our site if you type Avenue reviews are cabinet ratings, we will come up in a Google search, probably ahead of anything else. There's 800 people a day on that ratings page loads from all across the United States, looking at different cabinet rankings and reviews. And we have a great area for how we rate cabinet construction and durability. That's that doesn't undergo physical tests, but just the criteria that we sort of made on, you know, the cabinets, the thickness of the cabinet sides, and that they apply with our particle board, or are they framed and frameless and how do they construct it, etc. But yeah, so in our own little way, we sort of trying to this certain cabinetry brands too.

Betsy Natz  35:42  
Can I ask you a quick question about your own business before? So what percentage of your cabinet sales or frame versus brainless

Paul McAlary  35:53  
vast majority are framed, probably 95% are framed, and which is unusual, but it's also, I think that that's probably like you said, it's probably the national average. But we're right on the edge of the city of Philadelphia, and inside cities, a lot of times there's a lot of more contemporary cabinetry. That would be frameless. But even though we're very close to the city of Philadelphia, it's probably because the name of our company is called mainline kitchen design. And the main line is the suburb, the wealthier suburb outside of Philadelphia. And it probably discourages even though we're very reasonable for cabinetry, it discourages people a lot of times from inside the city, thinking that we would be competitively priced. So we get way less business from the inside of the city of Philadelphia than we do from the outside of Philadelphia. Which is why, you know, once we when we do sell frameless cabinets, a lot of times they're in condos and high rise buildings inside the city. But that's a small fraction of our business. So interesting. Yeah, to own it. And name it's a good thing to have a name made like edging design, but then it's a bad thing. Because since it's a wealthier, it's a good location name. But then since it's a wealthier location, it discourages Sometimes customers from thinking that they can that there'll be price competitive.

Betsy Natz  37:12  
Interesting. Okay, so

Paul McAlary  37:15  
thanks for being on the podcast.

Betsy Natz  37:19  
This has been such a great opportunity for KCMA to kind of get our name out there and the importance of our certification program. So we appreciate you Paul. All right. Great talking to everybody. holiday weekend.

Paul McAlary  37:31  
Okay, you too. Take care.

Chuck Arnold  37:32  
Thank you, Paul.

Mark Mitten  37:33  
Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul maxillary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality, custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai