Mark Mitten 0:05 Are normal American fat people going to have trouble walking around your new kitchen. You better call Paul. Paul McAlary 0:31 Hey, Rick, can you hear Rick 0:32 me? Hey, Paul, how are you Paul McAlary 0:35 wonderful? Thanks for waiting and welcome to better call Paul. Rick 0:39 Thanks for taking me. I love your website. Thanks a lot. The Paul McAlary 0:42 two things that you sent me that I can't wait to hear the explanation of. One is a hand drawing and the other one is from wood mode. So tell me the background of each of these designs. Yeah, the Speaker 1 0:56 hand drawing is a kitchen plan that I received from a vendor who I've asked to quote an option for me, and they bake that design off a bunch of measurements that I took of the existing kitchen. But it's the plan that I want, not the plan that exists in the remodel today. The thing that's labeled wood mode. That's just the I just, I just used an old forward, not the big, multi page document that contained the current kitchen layout and the measurement of what's in there today. And I just did that because, you know, easy enough to measure each individual box and just help make sure I didn't screw anything up. Paul McAlary 1:42 Oh, okay, I thought that was some kind of proposal from wood mode. And I was gonna say this guy must be like 90 years old, because the kitchen looks like it was designed 40 years ago. So, Speaker 1 1:55 yeah, the house was built in 1991 and it is the original kitchen. Paul McAlary 2:00 So it's even in 1991 it was a sort of a little bit of an antiquated design. The new design, I like a lot more. But there's things that we should discuss and we can, you know, maybe tweak, I guess. The first question I have is, how high are your ceilings? Speaker 1 2:19 Yeah, they're 108 and three quarter inches, approximately the nine foot ceiling. Paul McAlary 2:24 So if your ceilings are nine feet, how were the cabinet you know, how were they going to do the 51 inch high cabinets that they were proposing? Were they going to have little doors on top and then a bigger door below, or were they going to have it all be one door? Speaker 1 2:43 Yeah, great, great question. If you look at the floor plan, the new one on the right hand side, that kind of shown what, what the plan is there, and it the, well, there's a 36 inch upper with a 15 inch or on top of it, and then, like, three inches for Crim and crown. I don't know if that's gonna fit right. I just don't know if that's too narrow of a crown. But I did think, and you know, my wife agreed that we would try to put a smaller upper with a second round of doors on top, so we didn't have any soffits, yeah? And I think getting my third cabinet, yeah, Paul McAlary 3:21 not having soffits is great. And I would probably go 36 inch wall cabinets with 12 inch cabinets on top, so that I could have a two piece crown molding. And then the first piece would be a flat piece, and then the second crown molding would ride up and down, depending on how off level your ceiling was. And it helps disguise when a ceiling is a little bit off level. I mean, if you really were to use, you know, 36 and fifteens, what do you do when you hang the cabinets all level? And then, instead of having three inches between the top of the cabinet in the ceiling, you have two and three quarter inches in one place and three in one quarter in the other right? By putting 10 pounds of sausage in an eight pound wrapper, you'll succeed in just making everything look sort of crummy. And actually, the molding sort of looks a little bit skimpy for such tall cabinetry. So doing the two piece crown molding, I think, is gonna look a lot better, and then you'll have no problem if your ceiling is a little bit off level. Speaker 1 4:22 Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, thanks. Is 12 inches for that upper box going to look goofy? Or is that, you know that proportion going to be okay with a 12 over a 36 I mean, yeah, with Paul McAlary 4:33 12 and 36 is a standard sizes, right? So, I mean, okay, okay, if you did 15 over a 33 that might be the thing that some people would think would look the absolute best. Or if you're getting custom cabinets, maybe we could make it 34 and a 15, or something like that. But then now that's pulling it into custom cabinet sizes. If you want to be in standard sizes, then 33 Is not a standard size. 36 is 12 inches is 15 inches is so I would just go 36 and 12, and I can send you pictures. But if you look at our website, anywhere you see on our website, if there's a small cabinet on top and another cabinet below, nine out of the 10 of those cab those pictures are 36 and 12, just because most of our customers aren't getting custom cabinets from us. So only the custom if you see insect cabinets, you know, and you see, you know, Wolf and sub zero refrigerators, they're all custom cabinets, and they can be any dimensions, but generally, most of the kitchens that we have on our website are not custom cabinets, and so they have to be in these sizes. And we would never do 36 and a 15, because all the designers know I would have a heart attack if that was the case. Our company owns a laser level that we make the designer, if they go anywhere or four inches or less from the ceiling, then they have to bring a laser level out and laser level the whole room to tell us exactly how off it is. Speaker 1 6:06 That makes perfect sense to me. I'm glad you caught that. That would have been a nightmare to find that the crown interferes with the doors. Well, Paul McAlary 6:15 either that or you have to get a really tiny crown, or what usually happens is the contractors don't put the crown on, and they just leave it, you know, because they can't make it work, and it always happens at the end. So that's your solution for that. This is their drawing, and they've drawn everything to scale, I guess, in their hand drawing here. And this was a kitchen place that did this hand drawing. Rick 6:41 Yeah, yeah, okay. Paul McAlary 6:43 I mean, it's very nice hand drawing, but, you know, none of us would do this anymore. We would just put it on the computer and do it via the computer. But want to just go over things that I don't like, that I would do differently. Speaker 1 6:58 Yeah, absolutely what I'm the two biggest thing, you know, one of your articles talk about kitchen safety, and I, you know, tried to avoid any of those gaps. You know. The other is just flow, you know, it's kind of one of these. It's the biggest kitchen I've ever had. So, you know, I got a little bit more flexibility than I'm used to, but just trying to make sure I'm putting everything where it makes sense. And then, you know, we tend to move every three to five years because of my job. And so I'm really looking for, you know, what would enhance the resale value, I can live with pretty much anything. So no, rather than pick something that's important to me, I want to find something that, you know, fit for retail value. Paul McAlary 7:37 So, I mean, I think this is a good design. It does push the envelope a little bit on some things. The first thing is, you have 167 inches across the room, according to this so I take 136 inches, and then let's subtract the countertop on the sink side of the room. So minus 25 and a half that's how deep that average countertop is. Usually they actually end up coming out to be 26 because the contractors put some shims in back of the cabinets to get them all to align perfectly. So the countertop, a lot of times, is actually 26 inches deep. But let's try to keep this to the best case scenario. So 25 and a half inches for the countertop on the one side, then your cabinetry and everything else on the other side. We won't even include the refrigerator that's going to be jutting out. We'll just talk about the countertop on the other side of the room, and that's going to be 25 and a half so. So we got 51 inches. That leaves us with 116 inches. And then in this island that they've created, you're going to have an inch and a half overhang on the front of the island, and then you're going to have a 12 inch overhang on the back of the island, probably, and then you're going to have a paddle on the back. So your countertop on your island is going to really be more like 37 and a half or 38 so let's say you have a half inch panel on the back and you overhang 12 inches, and you have 25 and a half on the front. So that means your overall countertop is 38 that leaves you with 78 inches of space to divide up between the front of your island and the back of your island, and we divide it by two, that leaves you with 39 inches. So 39 inches is tighter than I would ever do it unless somebody put a gun to my head. So okay, how deep is 39 inches? Well, when your dishwasher door comes down, it comes down 30 inches. So that means there's only nine inches to get past. Or when your drawers open right, the drawers are full, extension drawers, if you're getting nice cabinets, and then they're going to come out like 22 inches. So then that would leave you with. With 17 inches. So when you pull the drawer out, if you wanted to stand in front of it, you would have only have 17 inches to be standing between the countertop and back of you and the drawer that's in front of you. So you have to be very thin to stand in front of your drawers. And then we might even talk about, what if you wanted to have somebody stand at the sink and someone stand at the countertop and back of the sink, you both better be thin and you're rubbing butt to butt. So in kitchen, in the kitchen world, the number that it's supposed to be if we want to obey the NKBA guidelines is a gigantic number that we seldom accomplish, except in people that have really big kitchens, and that's 48 inches. But I think that we will cheat all the time, but not beyond 42 so that means I gotta get six inches from your kitchen, and there's really only a way for me to get six inches on your kitchen, you know, with the monogram refrigerator, that definitely also has to be moved for a number of reasons that we'll discuss. But if you did this design, and you really only left yourself 36 inches, countertop to countertop, the monogram refrigerator, the way you have it, pulled out, forward and everything, and with the thickness of the doors on that refrigerator, they might be coming out another four inches or so, right? So now you only have, yeah, be 35 inches in front of the monogram refrigerator, so you can do this yourself, not now, but stand in front of your present refrigerator. Is it a French door refrigerator? Rick 11:42 It's a side by side, but Paul McAlary 11:44 either one is good side by side too, but you're gonna this is gonna new. One's gonna be a French door, but even with a side by side, if you stand in front of your refrigerator and put a chair in back of you that's 35 inches away, you won't be able to open the doors and stand in front of your refrigerator. Speaker 1 11:59 But I think the refrigerator is probably not drawn correctly. We are. We are looking to buy one of the built so i It'll be more fluff than it's known. If you know, totally Paul McAlary 12:11 flush. I'd have to look at the model to make sure that you could make it completely flush. All the different refrigerator models, you know, the hinges have to work a certain way, but even if you made it exactly 26 inches deep, and that the face of the doors of the refrigerator were even with essentially panels on the side of the refrigerator that just allowed the countertop to die into the side. So that would mean that the front of your refrigerators is at 26 that still would only leave you 39 and same thing, you can't even on a on a 42 inch refrigerator, especially where each of the doors is 21 inches. You only have 39 inches in your present drawing. So when you go to your doors, you can't step back far enough to pass your body, because that each door is coming 21 inches, and they have to pass your body. So that's why your refrigerator has to move. Even when we fix your island, it has to move so that it's in the gap between the island and the stove. And that's the only way you'll ever be able to open these doors and step back. That's the only way you'll be able to clean your refrigerator when you want to kneel on the floor and not have your feet hitting in your head, hitting the back of the island countertop and everything. So it just shifts down between those two places. And then the secret to make your island a size that makes sense, leave yourself 42 on the front and on the back of the island, and then the way that you do that, we have to just make a couple of changes. You just can't have a microwave drawer in your island anymore. We're going to switch your cabinetry in this design. We're going to put the pantries, or a big pantry on the right side of your refrigerator, so that your refrigerator can then fall into the gap between the island and the stove, and then the cabinet over the refrigerator will come out to the same distance as you know, maybe that wall that they have that's only coming Out 25 inches. Does that wall have a header over the top of it, you know, or is it just the wall end and the ceiling is straight across? Rick 14:29 Yeah, the ceiling is straight across, yep. Paul McAlary 14:31 And your ceiling is eight feet. So I think maybe what you want to do is either you got to make that wall longer so that the molding on top of the cabinets can die into the wall. You make the wall 27 and then the molding on top of the pantry will die or maybe even 28 I would make it, and then just make my door opening, 33 and then the molding on top of your pantry will die into. That wall, and then your big pantry and your refrigerator will be next to each other. And you can pull your pantry. I keep my refrigerator, but the panels, even with my pantry, you know what? I think I pull my pantry out one inch so that you can have the counter top that we're going to move to the right hand side of the kitchen, die into the panel on the side of your refrigerator. So then, if you're going to do that, then maybe you make it 29 inches, so that you have 26 inches, then in the molding can die into the wall, and then your countertop that's going to switch sides, which is actually better too. It's better to have the countertop on the right side than the left side, because it's going to make things more open, and you won't be pinching yourself so tightly between the wall on the one side and the refrigerator and that other wall that's on the on the left side. I wonder if that has to stay. Speaker 1 16:00 That does have to stay. That is a wall up again. Well, I see what you're saying. It goes into a dining room. And, yeah, it might not have to have Paul McAlary 16:12 to. If it didn't have to, I would love to take it out. And then your wall cabinets and your bottom cabinets that are going to have to be where your microwave drawer is going, you know, now you have this open area that you can serve off of going into the dining room, if you wanted to or got it, would have put even a bar refrigerator over there, too, besides the microwave drawer or whatever you want to do. But it's much more open now going into your dining room and your kitchen will look much bigger. And if you can get rid of that wall talking about value of your home, that's one of the first rules of kitchen design. We try to put all the tall, deep things, refrigerators and pantries in the corner, and then leave everything else that's bottom cabinets and top cabinets open, so that it makes the room seem bigger. Rick 17:00 Okay. Okay. I like that, yeah. Paul McAlary 17:03 So then you'll have, you'll have a little less pantry space. Unless you wanted to put one big pantry on the right side of the refrigerator, then the refrigerator, and then another thinner pantry on the left side of the refrigerator, you could do that too, and that would really make the refrigerator look built in. And then whatever's left of that, you'll have a little bit more countertop than you have and then. But when you take out the wall too, you could even extend the cabinetry and the countertop to all the way down to where the wall ended before. Speaker 1 17:34 But the pantries aren't a month either. They we there's a separate pantry in this kitchen, you know, if you're looking top down just to the right, it's not on the diagram. So you put the pantry cabinet there, just for the maximum amount of storage. But we could make those be any pump, yeah. Paul McAlary 17:50 So if you don't feel you need pantry and you want more countertop space and you want to have a bar refrigerator or something, or anything else, you can decide either way, the refrigerator stays in the same location, and you just have a narrower pantry on the other side of the refrigerator, instead of just a panel on the side of it, and then a little bit less countertop and stuff over there. And then what we do with the island to make the island look even better than this does, we're going to make these cabinets only 18 inches deep that your island is being made out of. So that's not a bad thing, but you can't have a countertop overhang the island when it's only 18 inches deep with a 12 inch overhang, because, you know, the island would tip over. So what we do is we've got a column on each end of your island that will close everything in, and we're going to make the column 30 inches deep. So the column will be 30 inches deep, and you can put door panels, like 15 inch door panels on the sides of the column, and then from the side, your island is going to appear to be much heavier. And, you know, more furniture looking than it did before. Before it was just a 24 inch cabinet with this countertop overhanging it. Now it's going to be a 30 inch, you know, door panels with only 18 inch deep cabinets on the front side of it. But that gives you 12 inches for the stools to go underneath, and that's where we get the extra six inches, three inches to put in front and three inches to put in back. I like that. And then that's a big difference. I always say to people, when they say resale value, the thing I always say is, when you go to sell your house, here's what's going to happen. People that are younger than you maybe are going to come through with their mother in law and maybe their father in law and a real estate agent, and they're going to be normal Americans, and there's going to be at least somebody in there that's going to be pretty heavy. And then they're going to be walking around your island and everything. And after they leave your house and they get in the car, you know, they'll say, What did you think about the house? And they'll say, Oh, it's a beautiful house, but it's really. Really tight in that kitchen, right? So, yeah, well, you don't want to leave the 39 inches, because there's all these people, and they're all going to be in the room, and they're not going to be able to pass each other if it's only 39 inches. Speaker 1 20:13 Yep, I see what you mean. Now, the columns that will support the countertop in the island are these, you know, Decorative columns that or or just like squares that you'd, uh, there's a lot in the white, the natural the shaker panel, when you just put the decorative panels on the side. Was that what you were thinking? Yeah, Paul McAlary 20:32 well, usually the way we do it is, you could just order it as a column, or we order it as a dishwasher end panel that we just add on to the thing and close in on the side, and then you're going to need a support in the middle, because you're going, it's pretty long island. So then you'll just have an invisible under counter support that goes on top of the middle cabinet. Your island will be supported on both ends by the column and by the support bar in the middle and the countertop companies, a lot of them stock that you could just type in countertop support bar and you'll see them. They're just a flat iron bar that goes right on top of the cabinets, essentially, and then sticks out, you know, the back. You don't have a go 12 inches. You have it go like 10 inches, so that it's not really that close to the very end of the overhang. Speaker 1 21:25 Yep, I'm familiar with those. Yep, uh huh. Paul McAlary 21:29 And then other than that, when we're just tweaking this layout a little bit, it's a good layout, but there's some things that I think are a little bit wasteful. I don't know if you've looked for sinks yet, but nobody needs a 42 inch sink cabinet. Okay, well, the sink cabinet is just going to be full of junk anyway. Why not make your sink cabinet the saw is that it needs to be for the sink you're selecting. So I don't know if you've picked out a sink yet, but most sinks that you're going to pick out are going to fit in either a 33 or at most, a 36 inch cabinet, but almost every sink our customers get fits in the 33 but if occasionally they select one that doesn't fit in the 33 and it has to go in a 36 but that will make your sink cabinet three inches narrower on each side. Yeah, that's a lot of bait, and then you got a 24 inch cabinet on the left side of your sink, which makes no sense, a 24 inch drawer base. I wouldn't put a 24 inch drawer base there. What I would do instead, when I get my three inches now, I have 27 inches, so I'm going to take my 27 inches and I'm going to make it an 18 inch double trash can pull out on the left side of my sink so that I could have a trash double trash can pull up with a trash in the front, recycling in the back, and then my dishwasher on the other side of my sink so I can scrape something off into the trash can, pour out the bottle of soda, throw it in the recycling, and then open my dishwasher and put the plate or whatever into the dishwasher, and It's all right there on either side of your sink. And then the other nine inches. I would make that nine inches. If you have a tray base, that's nine inches. Maybe I make this nine inches utensil. Pull out a utensil. Pull out to nine inch cabinet. You either can make this or the utensil pull out in between the Lazy Susan and the 18 inch trash can pull out, or vice versa, you switch the nine inch cabinet on the left of your stove to the utensil pull out. But a utensil pull out is like it's three metal bins that on top that, you put whisks and spoons and spatulas in, and then usually people throw out the middle shelf and then on the bottom shelf. Now is has the room for tall oils and vinegars and things like that. So you have one utensil pull out and one nine inch tray base, and they're each on each side of your lazy Susan. Speaker 1 23:58 Yep, okay, well, and now you got sick that we actually, we, I'm gonna have to have that trash pull out, yeah. And now you Paul McAlary 24:04 have three more inches on the right side of the dishwasher too. And then you know a 24 inch base, 24 DW. BC, what's that? What's DW door will be, I have no idea. Speaker 1 24:23 I think what I don't I don't remember either, but I think at one point he was thinking that would be the track pull out. Paul McAlary 24:29 So, yes, so that's a bad trash wasting 24 inches for a trash base makes no sense. And the 18 inch cabinet that's going to have a 35 quart trash can, which is a standard trash can for a kitchen in the front, and then in back of it will be the recycling. And then you don't have any drawers for pots and pans, so I would change your 24 inch trash can cabinet. And I'm going to send you all this. By the way, I'm going to white every. Out and then redraw it and send it to you. But I would make the next thing after the dishwasher a three drawer base for pots and pans, and that needs to be at least 30 inches. So we'll get three inches from the sink being smaller that have another three inches added to that. Then that will take three inches away from the end cabinet, and then that last end cabinet there, I would make that a four drawer base, 21 and then that's good too, because that's the drawer base that's closest to the table, right? So when you put your cutlery in that four drawer base, it's 21 inches wide, which is a better width for cutlery. You know, usually cutlery drawers, we want to be 18 or 21 inches wide. 24 inches is getting really wide. So this will be a 21 inch cabinet, which is a more appropriate size for cutlery, and it's the closest to the table I see, awesome. And then, you know, that solves all the the issues that I see, Speaker 1 26:00 oh yeah. I just had one other or two questions, I guess. One, if we take the microwave out of the island, you're going to then put it on that wall of cabinets at the bottom of the kitchen, somewhere next to the refrigerator in that row there on the right hand Paul McAlary 26:14 side of the refrigerator. And preferably you don't want to have two appliances next to each other, so I probably put up all the way to the right, so that when you open the microwave, you could take stuff out and put it on the countertop over the microwave, and you'd be able to work at the countertop. You could take stuff out of the refrigerator, put it into the microwave, take stuff out of the microwave, put it on the countertop. You know, ideally, it's good if we spread the areas of the kitchen out a little bit. So, you know, when you had the microwave opening right in back of the sink, that means that somebody's cleaning up. Can't be cleaning up if somebody wants to use the microwave drawer, right? So it right? Have always been better. If you were even going to have the microwave drawer on the island, I would have moved it all the way down to the other end of the island. You don't want these things interfering with each other. But it's even better to put it, I think, over by the refrigerator. Because I don't know if you have kids or not, but if they're using the microwave, they could, people could be doing stuff over by the refrigerator and not getting in anybody's way. That's making dinner. Speaker 1 27:18 Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Another question. We are looking to have some sort of appliance garage. My wife wants something with front doors that then can slide in, into the garage where we would keep like a toaster at a coffee machine, and along that same wall with a fridge. Seems like an ideal spot. What are your thoughts on that? Paul McAlary 27:41 So the only thing I'd say is, when the doors fold into the cabinet, you automatically in very expensive cabinets. So I don't know what your cabinet budget is, but you could do this whole kitchen in an inexpensive cabinet brand with 36 and 12 inch cabinets for something like, I don't know, $23,000 in cabinets or $25,000 but the second you say that this cabinet is going to have the French doors that slide into the cabinet, now you're at least 40% more. So now that's $10,000 more in cabinetry. Speaker 1 28:24 Oh, yeah, and that's because you're going to an inset cabinet, as opposed to a full overlay. Paul McAlary 28:28 Well, you don't have to be inset. That's even going to be more, but that was the next thing I was going to bring up. But if the doors are going to fold in, you're going to have to be in a brand that does inset. And then if the rest of your cabinets aren't inset, they're full overlay, then when those doors fold in, they're going to be much littler than all the other doors on your kitchen right? So it won't really look right unless you got inset cabinets. And now, if you're going to get inset cabinets in a custom cabinet brand, that's going to cost you another 10% so now you're at 38 five, and that's for the least expensive inset custom cabinet, you're going to really probably be more like $45,000 for cabinets, probably by the time. Yeah, Speaker 1 29:13 probably not, probably not ideal. So there, there are appliance garages that have different types of doors, then they can be French doors that maybe don't fly back, or they can let be on a hint. Paul McAlary 29:27 So that would be your solution, where everybody are we going to be going, yeah, so that's going to be the solution that everybody's going to have if you switch to that. Now, you can be doing that in an inexpensive brand, again, generally, okay. And you could be full overlay doors and not inset doors. So either one, either the lift up one, and what would you want Speaker 1 29:46 to put in it, coffee maker and a toaster. Paul McAlary 29:49 Coffee maker and a toaster. So then maybe what I do is those two appliances probably need a 15 inch deep cabinet to accommodate. For them. So then you increase the depth of the bottom cabinet to 15 inches. You're better off with the ones that fold up, the ones that just lift up like 100 degrees. The problem with that, yeah, they're in your way. Now, you can't see anything, right? You can't look through the door. It's at 90 degrees. So you want the more expensive one that fold up over the front of the cabinet above it, and then just make all of those cabinets 15 inches deep. And then what happens there is, every time you make the cabinet three inches deep, or the cabinet company charges you 25% more for those cabinets, so you're going to spend 35% more for all of these wall cabinets that are over in this location. I don't know that's more like $1,000 or so more and not $20,000 more. Rick 30:51 Yeah, I like that plan. And Paul McAlary 30:53 then the fold up door, by the way, is extra $700 for that fold up door. But again, those numbers are tiny compared to the, you know, once you get into the inset and the beaded inset and the other stuff that's involved. Speaker 1 31:09 Well, Paul, this was very interesting and very helpful. I appreciate. Okay, Paul McAlary 31:12 and then the only other thing I'd say too, is it all depends on what you like. Right now you have the 36 inch range with a 36 inch hood over the top. And then is it going to be a wooden chimney hood or a metal chimney hood? Speaker 1 31:28 Yeah, we like the wooden chimney hood. So if it's going to Paul McAlary 31:31 be a wooden chimney hood, then you'd have tile maybe going all the way up to the top. Yep. You know, sometimes the way I like to do it is instead of having a chimney hood, because now the molding is going to be around the wall cabinets, but the wall cabinet that you have on the side, the one that's close to the doorway, that's going to be a very lonely cabinet that's going to be sitting there with molding around it and next to your chimney hood. So if it was me, and this is Mike Itchen, and I like the wooden hood, I would do the same style as your chimney hood is, but I would make it 42 inches wide. And I would make it a canopy hood like a really nice wooden hood that was now six inches wider than the stove that's underneath, which looks more appropriate if you have somebody do this in 3d for you, and you look at the 36 inch hood over the 36 inch stove, and then they change it into a 42 inch hood over 36 inch stove. It just looks more appropriate. So I remember when I learned that one of the designers that was much older than I was was explaining this and some other things that I was absorbing all this information from her, but the hood that they picked instead, that was going to be 42 was going to be a three panel hood. And it always looks best to be a three panel hood, not a two panel or a four panel hood, because it's sort of like the Keystone in an arch where, you know, you have a middle thing, Oh yeah, okay, things on the side. But if you did a hood that was a built in hood that way, then your moldings would go across the whole area, and the hood would slow back so your moldings would connect the two wall cabinets on either side of the hood, and the hood would be bigger. It's a different look. It's not the chimney. Most people's knee jerk reaction is to go chimney, but then when you do chimney, then now you have this one wall cabinet that has this molding around it, but it's only an 18 inch wide cabinet, so you have this little molding going around it, then a whole lot of space, then the chimney in the middle, and then another, the other molding on the other side, ending, whereas, if it's a built in wooden hood, now the molding is making it a whole thing appear really more built in, because it's connecting the wall cabinets and the chimney and and the hood and everything else together. Speaker 1 33:45 I think hearing you describe that, I think I probably would have ended up with that anyway, because that wall that the stove is on backs up to the dining room, and I've got to run an exhaust duct out the the wall to the outside, which is actually the wall across the top of the drawing would think above the window, and so if I just had a kidney hood, there'd be no place to put that that Paul McAlary 34:07 well, just based on the disabilities that you have, I'm pretty sure that your joists run in that direction. So you could have gone up into the ceiling and then run it out, probably, if it's a two story, okay, Rick 34:20 I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And the Paul McAlary 34:22 blood, right? The Jordan, when you do the other version of the hood, you don't even have to try to fish this thing into your ceiling. You know, sometimes if you have a one story house, your roof comes down too low. So now you're coming out into this office. You know, if it's a two story house, you have no problem. Is your kitchen a two story part of the house. Yep, it is, it is. You can do it either way. But if, now, if you wanted to, and you did it with a whatever hood, the six inches of molding that you have on top of your cabinets will run across, and then they can just duct it straight on top of the cabinets outside, and don't even have to be fishing around inside the ceiling. Yeah. Yeah, I see you know you could be unlucky, and right where you want to run the duct, there's a joist. So even though you could run the duct between the joists, the joist just ends up being in a bad spot, and you're still, yeah, my French screwed. Speaker 1 35:15 Awesome. What about called, you could it's a canopy hood, not a chimney hood. That's, Paul McAlary 35:19 yeah, it's just a built in, just a built in wooden hood. There'll be a whole bunch of different kinds. I'll send you an example of one. What brand were you thinking about doing? Do you know, Speaker 1 35:32 I have not gotten to that point yet, though, but I know what you mean. They have different versions. You could actually have a rogue narrow cabinets up across the top, sort of like a wooden arch. Or you could have the canopy, which is sort of like just like a go canopy. I know exactly. Paul McAlary 35:51 There's a hole, there's a ton of, yeah, there's ones with, man, there's ones with, like doors across and then a mantle over the top with like an arch. There's ones that are sort of like a canopy, that have panels on them, or just not even panels. There's the biters. There's a ton of different ones. They won't be any more expensive than a wooden chimney hood would be if some of the canopy ones will be frighteningly inexpensive. So some of the canopy hoods depends on where you're getting them from, but they're sold online, unfinished. Sometimes we send them if we want a 42 inch canopy going across and the Cabinet brand that we're using doesn't offer it. We order it online. It's like $480 and then have it sent to the cab company and they paint it, and then ship it with the rest of the order. So it could be as frightening inexpensive thing, you know, if it's one of these pre made wooden hoods with the mantle and the arch, or a much more elaborate thing, it's usually more like $1,800 but that's what a wooden chimney would have been anyway. Okay, I like it. Okay, then I won't get to it tonight, probably, but I'm going to redo all of your designs by hand. I'm gonna white out his stuff and put my version of it in, and then you can come back if you wanna tweak it more or whatever. You don't have to do everything. I take. None of my customers ever do the kitchen that I would have done right the people that Co Op on the podcast more likely do the things that I recommend than my own customers, but I'm never offended if people want to do things other than I recommend it, just always warning you about the 39 inches and things like that you want to go into, whatever It's whenever you're breaking the rules or doing something unusual that I wouldn't do. You just want to make sure that you're doing it with eyes wide open. Speaker 1 37:49 Okay, well, that's good advice. I love the fixes, and I think that makes a lot of sense. I took a ton of notes, yep, Paul McAlary 37:55 and I'm going to send it to you so you're going to have a you're going to have the same plan back that you sent me with this guy's hand drawings, which are done very nicely, I can't believe anybody's was he, like, my age? This guy, like, is he in his the person that did this hand drawing? Is he like, in his late 60s or something? Speaker 1 38:12 I think, though, yeah, maybe on the number of years of experience in his profile. I think, yeah, Paul McAlary 38:17 I'm old, but I'm not old school. So he's old school, but I'll redraw everything and label it and then send it to you tomorrow. Speaker 1 38:27 All right. Well, thank you so much. All right. Thank you, sir. Have a good day. Paul McAlary 38:31 This is a good call, so we will definitely you and the drawing is so good that he sent and my drawing I'm going to actually make extra neat. We'll definitely be making this into a podcast probably in the next three or four weeks, if I remember, I'll shoot you an email just so you can listen to it, if you want to hear your own voice or whatever. Rick 38:50 Oh, awesome, cool. Yeah, I will definitely look for Paul McAlary 38:52 it. Thank you. Okay, all right. Sounds good. Thanks. Thanks for calling Speaker 1 38:56 in. All right. Have a great weekend. Okay? You too. Take care. Mark Mitten 38:59 Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul McAlary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com Transcribed by https://otter.ai